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the word fraud. that's because fraud is a legal conclusion. if they had used the word fraud there would have been an objection that would have been sustained. witnesses testify about facts, and the fact finder, the judge, appies the law to the fact to determine whether there was fraud. yes, we all agree not a single witness used the word fraud, but that doesn't mean that the ultimate conclusion will not be fraud because that's because this is all about documents and about the valuation of properties that exceeded their fair market value. and so i think at the end of the day, this idea that there was no harm done here is not going to prevail, and that's because the harm is sometimes difficult to quantify, difficult to measure. that's why they're seeking to disgorge profit, not to look at the loss amount. if donald trump received better terms on loans than others, then he got a competitive advantage others did not receive. >> barbara mcquade, yasmin vossoughian, danny cevallos, everybody stay with me. ahead we will have more details