of al qaeda. how do we get into that mindset and change it at the very center of pakistani governments? >> well, it's a very -- that's one of the $64,000 questions, because i think with all the trouble we have in so many other parts of the world over the next decade, pakistan could be more trouble than inelse. a huge country, a poor country, a nuclear country with lots of different divisions and very dangerous factions. but to abandon it would be the wrong idea. because then we're going to lose everything. we have to figure out a policy that will strengthen the pro-western hand in pakistan. >> if the pakistanis were in some way protecting bin laden, do you think it's possible that other high-value terrorists may also be enjoying the safety of the pakistani government and intelligence services? >> if pakistan was protecting bin laden, then absolutely a