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Morning, they want to try to move this trial to a friendlier venue. They suggest west virginia. We have got another jampacked hour of special coverage with reporters in the field providing the latest updates and the best legal and political minds we could find. And joining us this morning, nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian outside the courthouse. Nbc news correspondent garrett haake, who covers the Trump Campaign. Catherine christian, a former manhattan district attorney. She is also an msnbc legal analyst. And Ann Curb Kadori for new york magazine. Do we expect to hear from trump at all today, either before or after his arraignment . Well, we have been hearing from him already on social media, blasting this case as Election Interference as hes done so many times before, arguing the whole endeavor is an effort by joe biden and the biden doj to have him tied down in legal battles in 2024. Instead of focusing on the campaign. Hell also be traveling here today with reporters. I would not be surprised in the slightest if he finds a way to speak to the camera more directly as hes done after his two previous indictments. It is a way to capture fundraising and energy among his base, as you watch the cases with intense interest every time hes to appear before a judge. Garrett, youve been following closely the Trump Campaign. And the hefty financial cost of all these legal battles. What is the level of concern among those in trumps orbit about that . Look, it is a problem. They had to have transfer money around from different political organizations, supporting the former president , to move money they would rather spend on things Like Television ads, back to a pac, a Political Group where they can spend it on legal funds instead. Theyre setting up a separate Legal Defense fund to pay for court costs for people not named donald trump who have been caught up in some of these cases to shift the burden away from their political operation. And i can tell you, my inbox is filling up with fundraising appeals from the Trump Campaign that cite these cases specifically. So, it is a bit of a doubleedged sword for them. They raised a ton of money online from the supporters every time the former president has to appear in court, but they hemorrhage cash on the back end, paying for lawyers fees for donald trump and his various aides and associates who are caught up in this and who in many cases have remained loyal to him so they get a little bit of extra help in terms of their attorney fees. Garrett haake, thank you for being with us. I know you got to go back to reporting. Well see you soon. Thanks. Ken, i want to ask you about today. What can we expect today . Walk us through the arraignment process today, how much of it are we going to be seeing . Almost nothing, jose. And thats part of the frustration here. This is both a surrender and an arraignment. Mr. Trump is surrendering to federal authorities to be processed in this case. He will enter this Building En Route from the airport through an underground tunnel. We wont see him in public. Hell go into a courtroom where hell answer for the charges very much as what transpired in miami. A chance to plead or his lawyers will plead on his behalf. But importantly the public will not see this. Cameras are not allowed in Federal Courts, even though theyre allowed in most state courts around the country. There are as we understand it five seats in the courtroom reserved for the public. And 11 for the news media. There is an Overflow Room where well be able to watch the proceedings over a video screen. But i think, look, were reporters, were not here to give our opinions about things, but it is worth noting the incredible lack of transparency around this process in one of the most important criminal trials and proceedings in american history. The public is really walled off from seeing it and hearing it for themselves, guys. Is there a process for that to change . In other words, can it be changed . Yeah, there is a group of there is a Judiciary Council that has been considering various proposals for years. The Chief Justice of the United States has input, potentially the trial judge has input. But there has been a great resistance in the federal judiciary to have cameras in the courtroom. And at the Supreme Court as well. And, you know, if people want that to change, my advice to them would be to call their elected federal representatives and make their voices known. Let me ask you about that, catherine. Typically there are no cameras in Federal Court. We have come to accept that in most cases. Could that or should that be different for this trial, given the historic nature and the importance of transparency, especially with all the narratives that and the disinformation that is out there . Definitely. Were talking about a former president of the United States. So it is not this particular judges fault. Thats how it is done in the federal judiciary. But thats how it is done when you have defendants who are not the former president of the United States. And i am hopeful that the judicial council, the chief judge of the United States will change that. Now, the Supreme Court, you can hear audio of their proceedings. So at a minimum, maybe we can hear audio. I do think it is important, for the public to see this because the exact reasons you said, disinformation, the public can see the words coming out of the witness mouth, the public can see the judge. When one says the judge was unfair and was rude to me, the people will see, she seemed pretty fair and not rude. So, i hope that for this specific trial that the rules change. Who makes that decision . Is it the judge who oversees the trial or does it have to go to the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court . It is overhead. You cant blame an individual federal judge for not opening her courtroom. Meanwhile, were seeing we have an understanding that trumps airplane is now arriving at Newark International airport. So thats happening as we speak. You wrote that this is the most important criminal prosecution in american history. What did you mean by that . Donald trump has been accused of trying to steal the last president ial election. That is the theory of this criminal case. And to me it implicates the most significant issues and commitments that a president should have to this country. It is about democratic selfgovernance and his apparent effort to interfere with that process. And i really cant think of a criminal case that could be aimed at sort of a higher purpose than one that is designed to ensure that we are still governing ourselves and that we arent beholden to people who maybe want to stay in office, despite having lost an election. But trump would argue he truly believes what he has been saying about fraud, and so catherine, the legal team teased a Delusion Defense which would indicate he believed his own lies about the 2020 election and hes brought a lot of the country with him, 69 of republicans according to a new cnn poll believe joe biden is not correctly elected. Ill say two things, im not a psychiatrist, so i dont know whether being delusional qualifies as a severe Mental Disease and defect. There is a recognized Insanity Defense in Federal Court. And i would ask the defense is your client asserting an Insanity Defense, which he would have to prove not beyond a reasonable doubt, with clear and convincing evidence, that under the circumstances of his delusion, if it is a severe Mental Disease and defect, he could not understand the consequences of his actions. Putting that aside, if you read the indictment, the Special Counsel anticipated this and has listed all the credible people the Vice President , the white house counsel, the director of national intelligence, his ag, deputy ag, State Legislatures who all told him, President Trump, you lost, you lost, he lost all of those mainly frivolous lawsuits, they have documented all of those different people and like i said, these are not, you know, low level people, these are highranking officials, people who are credible, people who he hired, who told them he lost, not included in the indictment is someone who worked for him, i think her name is alyssa farah griffin, she repeated over and over again on another network that he said to her, i cant believe i lost to that guy. So im sure they have witnesses and other statements that are not included in the indictment to prove that he knew. Even in the indictment in two different places, they talk about how he said after meeting with the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff about a National Security issue, the chairman said, you know, we should push that, you know, until Inauguration Day and what was Donald Trumps response . Yeah, youre right. The next guy will have to deal with that. So, clearly he knew, according to that statement. He also he said that, you know, just call the election corrupt and me and the republican congressmen will deal with that issue. That was his response to his assistant attorneys general. So, they have anticipated this is going to be the defense. And theyre going to roll out one person after another who told him and it is an odd defense, you can basically say the president of the United States was delusional for two months while he was in office, but i think the Special Counsel is prepared for it. Yeah, and among the things that so far we have seen and this is just obviously the initial phase of it, but the defense, the Trump Defense team has been mentioning and kind of underlining is a Change Of Venue. Wondering how possible is that Change Of Venue and what is it in a trial like this that a Change Of Venue would be seen as something that could be done . So, he should not be able to obtain a Change Of Venue under the legal rules. Under the constitution, and relevance statutes, criminal cases have to be tried in the district in which the offense was committed. So the prosecutors dont have a choice here. And had there been some other sort of graphman in the conduct and the jurisdiction, maybe. But the fact that it is a heavily democratic jurisdiction is not sufficient for trump to just be able to get this case transferred. And in fact this argument has come up quite a few times over the last two, two and a half years in the context of other january 6th cases. There have been significant ones, Sedition Cases and the like, and many of those people made the same claims too. D. C. Is heavily democratic, they didnt vote for trump, how can you get a fair trial, thats not the litmus test for where we conduct trials in this country. Quickly, if you will, the timeline. How quickly could this trial move . I think this is a really critical and difficult question. A lot of it is going to be up to the judge. Shes going to have to consider there is already a march trial on the calendar, a may trial on the calendar, and unless one of those moves or the parties including those other prosecutors can figure something out, then shes looking at summer, right, around the nominating convention or the fall, which would be the sort of the last stretch of the Campaign Season if hes the general election nominee. And typically just give you one little data point, the most recent statistics that the court system, the Federal Court system put out, showed that the average time from the time when a criminal felony case is filed in d. C. To the disposition is over a year and a half. Thats the average case. And that includes cases that are played out, which drag that number down. You believe were talking about this . Just in general, the fact that were talking about a Change Of Venue and talking about how many the schedule and the different indictments. I mean it is remarkable. It is utterly remarkable. It is, you know, were all sort of getting tired of saying it, i think, that historic, unprecedented, but it is true and were living through a truly remarkable constitutional historic moment. Im, you know, as everyone here as invested as an american and interested and following along, but i also want to know how it ends and we may not know until the end of next year. So much is on the line right now. A lot at stake. Thank you. If you would stay with us, really appreciate you being with us this morning. Still ahead, were going to drill down on coconspirator one, believed to be trumps former lawyer Rudy Giuliani. Could he face charges . How much weight will mike pences written words have against his former boss . Youre watching special coverage of Donald Trumps third arraignment live from our Nations Capital. Were back in 60 seconds. From Nations Capital were back in 60 seconds so you only pay for what you need. Thats my boy. Stay off the freeways only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Do you struggle with occasional nerve aches only pay for what you need. In your hands or feet . Try Nervive Nerve relief from the worlds number one nerve care company. Nervive contains ala to relieve nerve aches, and bcomplex vitamins to fortify healthy nerves. Try nervive. And, try nervive pain relieving rollon. Mlb chooses tmobile for business for 5g solutions. To not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. Nows the time to see what americas largest 5g network can do for your business. Contemporaneous notes and specific conversations recalled by former Vice President mike pence now appear to be key evidence in the prosecution of donald trump. Pences efforts to stay neutral on the outcome of any indictment during Campaign Season just got a lot trickier. As for those notes he took, that detailed conversation with his former boss and pences former Chief Of Staff mark short says pence says that that was standard practice. As you can imagine, the job of Vice President of the United States is a pretty overwhelming position and there is a lot of information that flows through any single one day. He would often take notes, just to keep facts straight over time. Back with us now, former assistant d. A. And msnbc legal analyst Catherine Christian and prosecutor ankush khadori. When you hit page 32 of this indictment, the section outlining the defendants attempts to enlist the Vice President to fraudulently alter the election results, how compelling is this . It is very compelling and it goes on for another eight pages. It details, you know, how the pressure was put on, probably the we got the information from the Vice President s contemporaneous notes, how the pressure on the Vice President and the drumbeat, the pressure directly from the president of the United States and really sort of began on christmas day. Vice president pence called the president to wish him a merry christmas. And immediately the president changed the conversation and, you know, basically asked the Vice President to help him overturn the election. And then the Vice President said no and then it sort of thats when the drumbeat of the pressure began against Vice President pence. On new years day, the president , once again, you know, put pressure on the Vice President. It is listed in the indictment that, you know, he told him, the president told mike pence in response to mike pence saying i cant do this, dont have the authority to do this, what did the president say to him, quote, youre too honest. So, what does that mean . That also, i think, goes to show the defendant, trumps knowledge that he lost the election by saying to his Vice President , youre too honest, lets just lie, im adding those words. The Vice President said yesterday that even he was surprised by something he read in the indictment. Listen to this. After reading the indictment, did you learn anything new from it . Well, i did. I didnt know anything about the i didnt know anything about the efforts to secure fake electors in states around the country. I learned about that after the fact. You know, this is surprising to hear, right . So much has been talked about since this, you know, since the election and everything that happened. Im wondering, did that surprise you . You know that pence didnt know . Yeah. Not really. What we learned from the committee and the January 6th Committee and the hearings last year, and all of the reporting around this is that trump really saw pence as an obstacle. He came to understand that pence was not going to go along with this, not going to facilitate it, not going to be a conduit and help lobby other people. He does seem to figured out we need to work around him and eventually through him once none of that other stuff worked. And it does not seem like the last weeks produced a particularly Good Relationship between the two men. The fact that it was insistent, you know, it wasnt just once, it was as catherine was saying, it was christmas, and then new years. And the indictment says trump tells his other allies, supporters, coconspirators, as they outline in here, he tells them leave the Vice President to me. Dont be contacting him, let me take care of the Vice President. Yeah, i think that the the indictment is a set of allegations. We havent seen the defense case, we shouldnt just assume it is true, it is going to come in the way it is presented. However, what the indictment alleged a very sophisticated effort, right . A very deliberate and sophisticated effort. And so just to call back to our earlier discussion, i find it remarkable that his lawyers think that a quote, unquote, Delusion Defense could work under the circumstances. Not only does this allege someone who very clearly understands what theyre doing, but we have seen this man, this is not a criminal defendant that we do not have any familiarity with, he constantly tells us hes the smartest person in the room. And he wants to be reelected to the presidency. So, sometimes, like, lawyers come up with arguments that may sound good amongst one another or on paper, but when they hit the real world, people are allowed to use their common sense and jurors are allowed to use their common sense as well. Do you think well see both the former president and former Vice President on the Witness Stand . You know, it will be up to trump to determine whether or not he wants to take the stand. I think pence is an essential witness here, whether he kind of likes it or not. Hes at the center of the story. Sure, he would prefer it not to have to take the stand and may figure out some way to work with prosecutors to avoid it. But i have a hard time, if youre the prosecutor, prosecutors on this, figuring how you tell this story without putting him on the stand at some point. Got to leave it there today. So many more questions. Thank you for being part of this discussion. Everybody stay with us. Up next, security is tight in d. C. As the scene outside the courthouse becomes a little chaotic. Live with whats happening right now. Plus, how Rudy Giuliani went from americas mayor to conspirator number one in this latest trump indictment. Youre watching special coverage of Donald Trumps third arraignment live from our Nations Capital here on msnbc. Arraignment live from our Nations Capital here on Msnbc Wayfair has nice prices, so you can have nice things. Um kelly . We have champagne taste. On a hard seltzer budget. Wayfairs got just what you need what. Yall this is nice. Salad plates . Kelly clarkson . Im fancy now i have always wanted statement lighting. Get nice things at nice prices at wayfair wayfair, youve got just what i need fan 1 there ya go thats what im talkin about josh allen is this your plan to watch the game today . hero fan uh, yea. I have to watch my neighbors Nfl Sunday Ticket. josh allen its not your best plan. But you know what is . Myplan from verizon. 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Trumps appearance comes less than 24 hours after a 911 call of an active shooter near Senate Office building sent people running for shelter. Police say no shooter was found and that it may have been a, quote, bogus call. Lets go live to Yasmin Vossoughian outside the courthouse. You were present in d. C. On january 6th and at the previous arraignments. How do you compare that to what youve seen today . Just for a moment, i want to reflect on being on the steps of the capitol On January 6th, marching alongside the protesters On January 6th as they their made Way Up Constitution Avenue Toward The Capitol which im looking at today from the front of the courthouse, a full circle moment, two and a half years later and were now awaiting the arraignment, the third indictment and the arraignment of the former president of the United States because of the events leading up to the january 6th attack on the capitol. A real moment in this nations history. When we talk about the security overall, ana, ive been at all of these arraignments in manhattan, miami, here as well. Manhattan, the security was fairly tight. Miami, much more disorganized, many protesters were amongst the press. Here, though, the security is incredibly tight. I was here last week as we awaited this indictment to drop. All of these Bike Rack Barricades that you can see behind me, i dont know if you can necessarily see behind me, but see in that shot next to me, those were erected in the last 24 hours or so. They were not up last week when i was here. You had three different Security Services out here, police i should say, out here. You have park police, metro police, along with the u. S. Marshals. So were talking about park police, theyre kind of securing the streets around the courthouse. Metro police, as well, and then inside is u. S. Marshals. I took a walk inside the building. Right now you can go in and out of this building. There are armed officers inside of this building. What were thinking when it comes to the former president s arraignment is theyll come in, likely at this point we think through the Back Entrance of this building, which is a secure entrance, which takes you directly into the garage. There is a private elevator he will likely take up to the second floor as im being told in which he will then be arraigned and the Chief Justices courtroom by the Magistrate Judge. A lot of questions up in the air as to whether or not the actual building will be cordoned off from anybody entering or exiting. A lot up in the air still as we await the former president s arraignment at 4 00 p. M. Yasmin, thank you so very much. Lets dig deeper into the new indictment against the former president. And mentioned six unnamed and unindicted coconspirators. Rudy giulianis lawyer tells nbc news his client appears to be coconspirator number one, who Special Counsel jack smith says was involved in all three conspiracies that donald trump is accused of carrying out. This potentially means that he could also face charges in connection with trumps efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 president ial election. Giuliani reacted to the indictment in an interview with newsmax shortly after it was filed. There is no way i can confirm or deny that because they have not sent me a Target Letter or Subject Letter or any kind of letter. Everything i know about this is exculpatory. What i mean by that is, to me, when i read this, it contains a tremendous amount of false statements. With us now to talk more about this, msnbc legal analyst Catherine Christian, back with us, and joining us, jeremy peters, New York Times reporter and msnbc contributor. So, catherine, how likely do you think it is that giuliani could be charged in the future . He could be based on the facts, the allegations in this indictment. And, you know, hes mentioned or coconspirator number one is mentioned 46 times throughout this indictment. And also to note, mr. Giuliani is an attorney. The worst thing that could happen to an attorney other than obviously prison is to be disbarred or to have your livelihood taken away from you. New york state, where he practiced, they have suspended his ability to practice law. Why . Because of statements and litigation that he engaged in in pennsylvania related to the 2020 election. The d. C. Bar, a committee of their board of responsibility, has recommended that he be disbarred. Why . Because of the frivolous, they call it frivolous, false statements, speaking of false statements, that he made during the litigation in pennsylvania regarding the 2020 election. So, hes already suffered noncriminal severe consequences because of what he allegedly did in pennsylvania, in georgia, in arizona, in arizona when it is listed in the indictment, when the Arizona House speaker said to him, wheres your evidence, mr. Giuliani is quoted as saying, we dont have evidence, but we have lots of theories. So as an attorney, you cant do that. We are bound by the rules of professional responsibility. You cannot make frivolous knowingly make frivolous false statements publicly, particularly during litigation. So whether or not he is eventually indicted or prosecuted, he is already suffered severe consequences. But is he going to face the same charges as trump or would they be different . It should be if you read if you read the indictment, he is all through it. And so he was part of all allegedly part of all of the conspiracy, the conspiracy to defraud the United States, the obstruction, the conspiracy to obstruct, so if you believe those allegations and if the special prosecutor, as i said, hes all over the indictment, believes there should be a prosecution, then he would be prosecuted. Again, hes innocent until proven guilty, but he is all over this indictment. Giuliani is a former federal prosecutor, mayor of new york city, how did he get from there to here . It really is a stunning fall from grace. Lets not forget, this is a guy who was called americas mayor after 9 11. And hes somebody who also, you know, was a u. S. Attorney. Were talking about, like, his knowledge of the law here. Lets not forget that he has an intimate knowledge of exactly what hes doing and i think that is what is so damning about the allegations that are spelled out in this indictment that he didnt, in fact, argue in court when or before the state legislative hearings anything legally about voter fraud having taken place. And people forget that, but it is incredibly telling because he knew that if he went before an official legal proceeding and said that he had evidence of fraud when really all that they had were these affidavits from people of, you know, questionable Mental Stability that he could be on the hook legally for that and as we just talked about, he is in the process of being disciplined and sanctioned for his role as an officer of the court for perpetuating known falsehoods. Jeremy, can you see giuliani flipping . No. I dont think so. I think hes hes so far gone at this point, and there has been reporting by my colleagues at the times, reporting of my own when i was writing a book about the 2020 election and trumps movement that hes not only lost touch with reality that he is no longer the version of himself that was so widely admired by people of all partisan persuasions, but that he was also and trump said this drinking heavily, that he trump at one point berated him for being a drunk. And there is i just dont see, unless, you know, something unforeseeable happens here, that he would suddenly switch loyalties. Thats been incredibly rare in trumps inner circle, with a few exceptions of people like michael cohen, but at this point, giuliani is so far dug in, it really wouldnt make much sense for him to do anything other than stay the course. Unless it is to save his own butt. Catherine christian and jeremy peters, thank you very much for being with us. Certainly a question that remains in the air. Up next, donald trump still has a lot of support for his current president ial run, despite all of his legal problems. We also have some new reporting about a private meeting between former president obama and President Biden on how best to defeat trump. Youre watching special coverage of Donald Trumps third arraignment live from our Nations Capital. S third arraignment live from our Nations Capital from pep in their step to shine in their coats, when people switch their dogs food to the farmers dog, the effects can seem like magic. But theres no magic involved. dog bark its just smarter, healthier pet food. Its amazing what real food can do. I was stuck. Unresolved Depression Symptoms were in my way. I needed more from my antidepressant. Vraylar helped give it a lift. Adding vraylar to an antidepressant. Is clinically proven to help relieve overall Depression Symptoms. Better than an antidepressant alone. And in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. 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Any reaction to trumps arraignment in d. C. Today . That was President Biden last hour in delaware. He ignored questions about former President Trumps indictment and the arraignment that is happening today. Now, trump is looking to capitalize on this moment. He and his team have sent eight fundraising emails since his indictment on tuesday. The subject of trumps continued political strength was the topic of discussion in a private meeting we learned between President Biden and former president obama who discussed how much was at stake in the 2024 election. This was back in june, according to two sources. Joining us now is nbcs chief White House Correspondent kristen welker. Great seeing you. What more can you tell us about this meeting . Hi, ana and jose. Great to be with both of you. According to multiple sources familiar with this june lunch, we are told that 2024 was front and center and were told that former president obama effectively had two main messages. One, that he was willing to do whatever is necessary to help get President Biden reelected. And number two, a bit of a warning about the trump base, the ongoing strength of the trump base. Why is this so important . I have to tell you, democrats who i speak with say that trump is bidens best bet of reelection. I spoke to a top aide to former president obama, eric schultz, who would not confirm the contents of this discussion, but he did give this statement. Let me read part of it to you. He says, quote, just as he always has, president obama looks forward to supporting democrats up and down the ballot next fall. And no race has bigger stakes than President Bidens reelection. Schultz goes on to say, our strategy will be based on driving impact. We place a huge emphasis on finding creative ways to reach new audiences, especially tools that could be directly tied to Voter Mobilization or volunteer activations. We are deliberate in picking our moments because our objective is to move the needle. Translation, you guys, former president obama is going to be a big force, out on the campaign trail, the timing of that, the specific states still tbd. But, look, just taking a step back, think about what happened back in 2016, when you talk to democrats across the spectrum who said trump is Hillary Clintons best chance of winning the white house, right . That was a serious miscalculation. And if you read the tea leaves of that conversation, it seems like former president obama was trying to make the same case. Dont underestimate former President Trump. Ana and jose . Kristen welker, thank you. Joining us now is jen psaki, former press secretary for President Biden and host of the fantastic Inside With Jen Psaki on msnbc and peacock. And jeff dowd, msnbc political contributor. How concerned should democrats be that trump seems to be getting Even Stronger among his Republican Base . Well, i think in any political race, and ive done quite a few of them, you have to be very sober and cleareyed about your opponent. And their strengths. And ultimately winning is about defeating that person. What i heard from and having worked for former president obama for ten years and joe biden President Biden for a couple of years as well, president obama is very cleareyed, sober, specific at times and direct about politics. And it sounds like he was with President Biden and i dont think any of that was a surprise. President biden looks at the polls himself, no one in that white house right now and i talked to a lot of them thinks this is going to be an easy race where they skate through the finish line. So it was probably confirming what he already thought, but it is important for democrats to hear and understand. Despite what were seeing about trumps indictments, about the legal challenges, about even his former Vice President coming to the brink of criticizing him, he still has strength in his base and it is important to be cleareyed about that going into election year. If knowing both of them as well as you do and having worked for both of them, what was that conversation then like, do you think . Well, theyre friends as well, right . So im sure they talked about Policy Issues that theyre the president is going through, the current president is going through. But, of course, politics too. The president getting reelected is important for the country and our democracy. I know president obama very much believes that. Hes concerned about misinformation, disinformation out there, and how to combat that, thats something he dealt with too when he was president. But also about what role hes going to play. And you heard him say that. There is no question that one of president obamas super powers is motivating people to register to early vote. And i suspect that will be a big role he will play next year. Matthew, jack smith in this indictment really pulls no punches. He calls a spade a spade. He called what trump said a lie and he said he lied over and over again, knowingly, knowing the truth, and yet 69 of republicans according to this new cnn poll say bidens win was not legitimate. Thats up from 63 earlier this year. So it is going the wrong direction. I just wonder, you know, do people believe what theyre going to believe and is there a way to change voters minds at this point . Well, the problem is, the voters those voters have been told that biden wasnt elected over and over and over again on the various platforms that they contact. Thats the ecosystem that were in right now is that republicans, by and large, are an ecosystem where theyre lied to and biases and prejudices are constantly confirmed, whether it is fox news, breitbart, whatever many of those there are. And so it doesnt surprise me since voters when they tune in are told biden stole the election or hes illegitimate over and over and over again. The problem for trump is hes slit phi solidified his base more so, hes more popular today among the Republican Base than he was when he was first elected in 2016. Every time this happens it disconnects him from the voters who decide this election. Those independent voters and swing voters. And soft the democrats who may be motivated in the course of this. So, donald trump is teflon don among the Republican Base, hes not teflon among independent and swing voters in this country. And then there is the other issue, jen, you know, trumps super pac sent out this fund raising email saying there is a distinct pattern emerging, every time that bidens wrongdoing is uncovered, President Trump is targeted by democrat lawfare. Is this something that is going to have you think any weight Going Forward as the hunter biden case hasnt been wrapped up . True. They tried the same tactic, back in 2020 and it didnt work. I think what theyre trying to do from a political standpoint, one, the pac is almost bankrupt. They need to raise money. Hunter biden and raising hunter biden is something that gets the base, the Republican Base going. What they want strategically is there to be this False Equivalency between hunter biden, who, yes, didnt pay taxes for two years, didnt register his gun, yes, thats serious there are consequences, hes going through the legal process, theyre working through that process on the plea deal, that is not the same, and i think it is important to state this, as a former president trying to overturn the outcome of an election or trying to or Obstructing Justice as hes been indicted for. What the trump team wants is False Equivalency so it all feels the same and they want to raise money off of it because they need money for their pac. And trying to tie in hunter biden with President Biden, not just biden of course they are. And there is no evidence of that. Theyre going to keep trying because that is the argument that they want to fuzzy the waters out there, muddy the waters, not fuzzy them, muddy the waters out there. That, by the way is a tactic that Vladimir Putin and other authoritarian dictators use, but thats their strategic objective, to make it all seem the same. And can i add one thing to here . There is a history in our country of trying to bring relatives into the campaign, it never works. I remember with george w. Bush, they brought up bush over and over and over again, george bush got elected. George clinton was brought up, the half brother of bill clinton, it never worked. Nixons brother was brought up over and over and over again, it didnt work. Billy carter was brought up in 19 it doesnt work. It is a distraction, it feeds the base, swing voters do not care about hunter biden. Matthew, Last Night One of the president s most loyal allies on capitol hill addressed any possible conviction of trump in washington, d. C. And heres what he had to say. Well, shawn, any conviction in d. C. Against donald trump is not legitimate. So theyre charging him with a crime of taking bad legal advice, thats what this is about. Okay. So thats Lindsey Graham. What do you make of what he just said . Well, what lindsey is trying to say is is basically any decision you can object to any decision if it is not in a jurisdiction you dont like. For example, dont remember Lindsey Graham bringing up that a Donald Trumpappointed judge is overseeing the trial in florida, a state that george a state that donald trump carried twice in the course of this. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If it is not supposed to be in d. C. , then it certainly shouldnt be in florida. Thats not how the legal system works. Jen psaki and matthew dowd, thank you for being with us this morning. Up next, the importance of the the gravity of the third indictment, it cant be overstated. Well talk with a president ial historian, michael beschloss, about how this could be the most important criminal prosecution in u. S. History. Youre watching special coverage of Donald Trumps third arraignment, live from our Nations Capital. Stay right there. T, live from or Nations Capital stay right the re subways now slicing their meats fresh. Thats why soccer pros like me profer the grand slam ham. And this rookie prefers fresh sliced turkey. Perfect for when youre subbed out of the game. And if we profer it, we know youll prefer it too. Nothing better than a sub, sub. Sometimes, the lows of Bipolar Depression feel darkest before dawn. With caplyta, theres a chance to let in the lyte. Caplyta is proven to deliver significant relief across Bipolar Depression. Unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and ii depression. And in clinical trials, Movement Disorders and weight gain were not common. Call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. Antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. 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Its great seeing you. You said what donald trump is accused of doing is greater than anything nixon did. Thats because this is a president he is accused of Obstructing Justice as nixon was accused, abusing power, the same. But there was no january 6th. This was an effort even if you are the most ardent trump supporter where President Trump and the people around him made an effort to overturn the results of the 2020 election, to keep joe biden from getting in power, to stop the counting of the Electoral College electors. Had that succeeded it came close, because remember how close those rioters were in the capitol. They were 40 feet away and short of conceivably killing the Vice President , killing the speaker of the house. This is speculation, but the president might have responded by invoking the Insurrection Act Or De that was discussed according to the indictment. Before then and since then. Had that happened, its not too much to say that we might not be here. We might be living in an authoritarian country where there might not be a free press. Thats how different this is from nixon and all other american history. Nixons white house counsel, john dean, who we know went to prison for a part of the crime in that case, he recently said in an article that he believes Ford Pardoning Nixon set a bad precedent. It created this idea that a president is in some ways above the law or that there arent consequences when a president commits a crime. Do you agree with that . Thats my view. Gerald ford was a fine person, Well Intentioned and did this, i think, for mostly positive reasons a month after nixon quit. But the result is that this has been a message to a reckless, lawless possible later president , no names mentioned at the moment, that the presidency is a free crime zone. Whatever you do in office, you will be forgiven for this because, as gerald ford said, the American People do not want to see a former president in the dock, being fingerprinted, photographs and potentially going to prison. I think that was a bad message. Donald trump knew Richard Nixon very well in his retirement in new york. You have to assume one of the messages this sent to donald trump was, as much as i may do as president that may even be accused of breaking the law, the precedent is the worst that can happen is i can have a nice retirement by the sea. Thank you. Thanks for being with us. Pleasure. Thank you. Thats going to wrap the hour for us. This special coverage with you, jose. Thank you for the privilege of your time. Andrea mitchell picks up and chris jansen picks up our special coverage right now. With no odor and no mess. They work continuously, so you dont have to. Zevo. Peoplefriendly. 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Im Andrea Mitchell in washington with my colleague Chris Jansing for the next four hours as the nation prepares for what could be the most momentous challenge to American Democracy since its founding, the ordinarily transfer of president ial power in question, with this indictment, donald trump facing his most important legal test, charges that he conspired to overturn a free and Fair Election that he had lost and with his coconspirators welcomed violence to achieve his goal. This will be his third arraignment in four months. We are a few blocks away from the Federal Courthouse with an unprecedented Security Presence both outside and inside that building at this hour. Its where the former president will arrive this afternoon for what is now a familiar process, both for trump and his legal team. An appearance before a Magistrate Judge to hear the charges a