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I think this document is about as close as you get to a smoking gun. Then, the case for not televising a trump trial, and the man suspected of threatening to assassinate joe biden and alvin bragg is shot and killed by the fbi. And, the Pro Democracy Movement wins again. A majority still rules the majority still rules [crowd chanting] [applause] how the republican push to remove fundamental rights lost big in ohio. Starts, right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Today we can see new developments in the january 6th case, the terrifying reminder of how dangerous it is when this problem defendant, donald trump, constantly attacks judges and prosecutors. Earlier today a man named Craig Robertson was killed just 45 minutes from where President Biden is set to speak tomorrow. Federal agents say they were trying to serve the man an Arrest Warrant after robertson had made a series of graphic and extremely specific Death Threats towards the president as well as the Vice President as well as multiple individuals associated with the prosecution of ex President Trump. This comes the same week that the judge is expected to weigh in on the potential consequences for trumps own threatening rhetoric against those prosecuting him. We will have more on that raid a bit later. But first, today, in a pair of newly published documents, we learn new details about donald trump and his lawyers attempts to overturn american democracy and the Special Counsels attempt to hold him accountable. The first document we learned about is yet another coup memo. Dated exactly one month before january six. It is authored by a trump election lawyer ken chesebro, believed to be one of the unindicted coconspirators mentioned in the indictment. It expands on the socalled Fake Electors Scheme and the efforts to pressure mike pence to hand the election to twang. Quote, i believe that what could be achieved on january 6th is not simply to keep biden below 270 electoral votes. It seems feasible the vote count can be conducted so that at no point will trump be behind in the electoral vote count unless and until biden can obtain a favorable decision from the Supreme Court. In other words, a scheme to declare trump the winner over the will of the people and to force biden to claw back his legitimate small d Democratic Victory via the 63 trump Supreme Court. So thats one document we got today. But its not all we got today. We also get a newly unsealed legal filing from the january 6th case, revealing that the Special Counsel successfully gained access to the ex president twitter account earlier this year. But not without a fight from the companys new rightwing owner, elon musk. Back in may it was first reported that smiths team was feuding with a Major Tech Company in some capacity. The details of the fight were unclear based on the Court Records at the time. Now we know precisely what went down. It was part of it. As part of his investigation, smith deemed it necessary to view the inner workings of trumps twitter account, although its not currently clear what exactly he was looking for. For the legal filing, quote, on january 17th, 2023, the government applied for and obtained a Search Warrant that directed twitter to release data and records related to the real donald trump should or account. Based on affidavits, the District Court found probable cause to search the account for signs of criminal offenses. In other words, smith was able to convince a judge that there was reason to believe that don trumps twitter account contain positive cause. But at this point to twitter was in the hands of elon musk, busy Building Public images rightwing trolls. The company was operating such a state of manifest disfunction, smith prosecutors couldnt even get through to them, initially. I quote again, the government faced difficulties when it first attempted to serve twitter with a warrant. On january 17th, 2023, the government tried to submit the papers through the companys website, only to find out the website wasnt operative. Two days later the government successfully served twitter through that website. So smith gets through to twitter or on the 19th, and the deadline to comply is the 27th. Quote, on january 25th, when the government contacted fritters counsel to check on the status of traitors compliance, todays council stated that she, quote, had not heard anything about the warrant. Two days before the deadline, twitters lawyer says she had no idea there was even a warrant from the Department Of Justice in the first place. At this point not only was Musk Running Twitter in a total state of chaos, according to all public accounts we have, it was clear he would stop at nothing to Court Controversy and attention for his 44 Billion Dollar vanity purchase, which was very quickly losing value. After all, he was already using the platform to spread misinformation to platform neonazis and white supremacists, and, as he told cnbc, nothing could stop him from keeping things as chaotic as possible. Do your tweets or the company . Its in the princess bride. Great movie. Where he confronts the person who killed his father and he says offer me money. Offer me power. I dont care. So you just dont care. Ill say what i want to say. And the consequence of that is losing money, so be it. Last part is gonna be important in just a second. Heres a crucial part of this report deal. Smiths prosecutors had to take steps to make sure musk wouldnt spill the beans about the Search Warrant. Quote, the government applied for and obtained a quarter, the District Court found a reasonable grounds to believe that disclosing the Warrant Former President Trump would, quote, seriously jeopardize the Ongoing Investigation by giving him, wait for it, an opportunity to destroy evidence, change patterns of behavior, or notify confederates. Put simply, later in the filing quote, the whole point was to avoid tipping off the former president about the warrants existence. Musk wasnt happy he couldnt tell trump about the Search Warrant. Four days after the initial deadline, he challenged the entire process, after the deadline, on the grounds he had a free speech right to spill the beans regarding this ongoing criminal investigation of the ex president United States. Quote, in its motion challenging the Nondisclosure Order, twitter argued the order violated the companys First Amendment right to communicate with its subscriber. [laughter] the guy who banned in the platform, former President Trump. So trump said were not gonna cooperate until court rules i can talk about and then the court ruled against musk. Moreover, they held twitter in contempt for again missing the deadline to comply with the warrant. This means in addition to access to trumps account, the company had to fork over 350,000 in fines. If youre shocked to find out that Smith Got Access To Trump s twitter account, you maybe not be alone. Donald trump claims he is a lot. As well. Today he posted, just found out the Crooked Joe Biden attack my twitter account, making it a point not to let me know about this major hit and my civil rights. Our Senior Counsel for the committee. Good to have you both. Lets start on the twitter back and forth with you here, lisa. Okay, first of all, how common are these sorts of warrants or requests . The fairly common. I think most American People dont understand that when you have Something Like a twitter or facebook or instagram account, those companies can be served, as can google, for all sorts of electronic data and Records Associated with your account. President trump is no exception here. So they can serve these thirdparty warrants . They can go to the provider and say hey, we want this person, and again, this is for any criminal suspect under investigation, we have probable cause. We have to go to a judge first. You go to twitter and we say to twitter, directly, we have to see this account. Yes. They also apply for Nondisclosure Order for the reasons that you referred to in your wind up, which is the same reason, in fact, in the Special Counsel wants protective order in this litigation as well. You want to protect the integrity of the investigation. You want to protect the fairness of the trial. And that includes not only protecting witnesses from being tampered with or the jury pool from being tampered with but also to prevent the targeted the investigation from notifying others with whom that person is in contact and who could be under investigation themselves. Sort of dilley era dms, the block is hot kind of warning. Or develop your cover story. What do you mean . Lets say, for example, your dance convene, who is involved with trumps twitter account at the time. When he used it. When he used twitter, right. And if trump have notified of the warrant, you can say to scavino, not only delete your dms, but figure out what youre going to say about things like drafts that i had of tweets that i may have we may have edited between us. One of the things the trailer can gets location data. Where were you when you wrote a particular tweet . Did you added that tweet . Other tweets that are related to your draft folder still . Which electronic disasters had access to those are so an imprint related to those things . Those are the kind of things that i expect twitter will ask for by the Department Of Justice and Special Counsels office. Mark, let me ask you about the other document made public today, which is the chesebro memo. Its one of several. First, as someone who investigated january 6th and the various plots that went along with that, whats your Top Line Takeaway from this document as Chesebro Sort of starts to spell out, you know, what is very hard to look at is a legal playbook and more essentially a power play . I agree, its a significant document, for sure, and it seems to be a pivot point, where the strategy that had been floated weeks prior of getting alternate electors together and get them to meet on the 14th, starts to pivot into the president of the senate strategy, which is the mechanism that they can use to have Vice President pence either stop the count or count votes in favor of trump that had gone to biden, that would disrupt the Certification Process generally. Its a significant document. The select committee, what was set for us in in that documents, in other documents, later an email to Rudy Giuliani from chesebro several days later that lays it all out. It appears a pivot point in the way they are looking at this all strategy of alternate electors. I want to read a bit more for the memo, because we get to the part where, we are structurally the council. Were always which doesnt have any legal significance. Its pure from the political theatrical slash power play. Even if the and the Supreme Court lies with congress, letting matters play out this way would guarantee the public attention we riveted around the evidence of political views is by democrats or when the litigation of votes or add to trumps core part of what is happening here is, hes conceding didnt lead the Supreme Court when even by what hes doing. In other words, he doesnt think this is actually good law. Now. He doesnt. That puts him in good company with his friend john eastman. But one of the other things that youll notice in this document is he says this is going to work only have three conditions are met. And we know that two of those three conditions were never met, and yet ken chesebro, john eastman, and others in inquire ration with them continue to advance the fake electors and strategy nonetheless. Mark, one of the defenses weve heard from various people involved in this, and those include john eastman, people that are speaking for the ex president , including the ex president , is essentially, this is political hardball. It may be a key, but its not illegal. Its not criminal. And i want to redo what chesebro said in a statement, in his defense. I think this is his lawyer, actually. Mr. Chesebro is asked to provide he applied his legal acumen to these complex legal issues. Based on that exceeding existing legal president , he summarized his finding writings. Whether the campaign relied on that we hope the full indeed Special Counsel floyd recognize these issues before deciding who, if anyone, to charge. What do you make of that . Well, im not shocked by that approach. John eastman has made similar arguments in his state bar proceeding, hey im just giving legal advice. But when you look at this, as lisa mentioned, when you look at these documents together in a sequence of events, its very clear that what went from back in november, and idea that we should have contingent electors, backing up for the viewers a little bit, the idea was December 14th Electors need to meet. And the hard and fast deadline under the. While law and hey, weve got all these court challenges, and what if we win one of those after December 14th . We need to have been protected. That sort of notion in this november memo, but then by the december six memo that youre talking about that was reported on by the New York Times yesterday, it sort of, all bets are off. It doesnt matter if theyve won the challenges or whether, as long as there is a litigation pending, at least points out, that was one of the conditions. Thats where the strategy pivoted, that were going to use these electors, whether or not we go to court. Which is what eventually happened. They use the fake elector certificates to pressure mike pence to solve the certification. Its very interesting in the indictment itself, the 45page indictment, it zeroes in on this transgressive moment from a defensible legal strategy undertaken a good faith to what they say is part of a criminal undertaking to defraud the United States undertaken in bad faith. And you see here why its undertaken in bad faith. Those conditions i was referring to earlier, he says this can work, provided that they meet in compliance with federal and state law. But thats not what they did. For example, in nevada, they know that the Secretary Of State has to preside over the electors meeting. But they knew at the time, chesebro put this in writing, that Barbara Kasky wasnt gonna play ball. He also says that there also has to be pending on january six itself, not just after December 14th, but on the sixth, there has to be litigation pending, and every one of these states, that plausibly could lead to a trump victory. By December 11th itself almost all litigation was dead and we know from the indictment around december 13th, thats when they first get the idea to even file a case in new mexico. That wasnt filed until six minutes before the deadline for certifying those electors. Bad faith all the way down. Marc harris, lisa reuben, thank you both. Coming up, ohio voters sent a resounding message that they will turn out to protect Abortion Rights. But first, new concerns about violence from long trumps followers after utah man is killed by fbi agents serving an Arrest Warrant. Explicit and graphic threats he made that attracted the attention of law enforcement. Next. This morning fbi agents arrived at a home in provo utah, to arrest a man accused of making serious threats against joe biden and various officials, as well as prosecutors investigating trump. And the urgency of the matter is President Biden was on his way to utah today, where he is now, to a veteranshealth care event in Salt Lake City tomorrow. The mans most recent threat intimated he would be lying in wait with a sniper rifle when biden arrived. In a statement the fbi said agents were involved in a shooting around 6 15 this morning, and that the man was shot and killed. Agents no agents were injured. The fbi identified the man is craig d. Robertson, and the arrest affidavit, which detailed multiple specific explicit and graphic threats against joe biden, alvin bragg, Kamala Harris, and others. Often he would use the same language trump has used. The man had been visited by the fbi once previously, in the spring, and many of his online violent threats were to the fbi agents themselves, particularly after that visit. Joining me now is kyle dunphey, reporter for utah s news. Kyle, what can you tell us first about the man who was killed this morning that they were trying to search, serve the Pro Democracy Movement<\/a> wins again. A majority still rules the majority still rules [crowd chanting] [applause] how the republican push to remove fundamental rights lost big in ohio. Starts, right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Today we can see new developments in the january 6th case, the terrifying reminder of how dangerous it is when this problem defendant, donald trump, constantly attacks judges and prosecutors. Earlier today a man named Craig Robertson<\/a> was killed just 45 minutes from where President Biden<\/a> is set to speak tomorrow. Federal agents say they were trying to serve the man an Arrest Warrant<\/a> after robertson had made a series of graphic and extremely specific Death Threats<\/a> towards the president as well as the Vice President<\/a> as well as multiple individuals associated with the prosecution of ex President Trump<\/a>. This comes the same week that the judge is expected to weigh in on the potential consequences for trumps own threatening rhetoric against those prosecuting him. We will have more on that raid a bit later. But first, today, in a pair of newly published documents, we learn new details about donald trump and his lawyers attempts to overturn american democracy and the Special Counsel<\/a>s attempt to hold him accountable. The first document we learned about is yet another coup memo. Dated exactly one month before january six. It is authored by a trump election lawyer ken chesebro, believed to be one of the unindicted coconspirators mentioned in the indictment. It expands on the socalled Fake Electors Scheme<\/a> and the efforts to pressure mike pence to hand the election to twang. Quote, i believe that what could be achieved on january 6th is not simply to keep biden below 270 electoral votes. It seems feasible the vote count can be conducted so that at no point will trump be behind in the electoral vote count unless and until biden can obtain a favorable decision from the Supreme Court<\/a>. In other words, a scheme to declare trump the winner over the will of the people and to force biden to claw back his legitimate small d Democratic Victory<\/a> via the 63 trump Supreme Court<\/a>. So thats one document we got today. But its not all we got today. We also get a newly unsealed legal filing from the january 6th case, revealing that the Special Counsel<\/a> successfully gained access to the ex president twitter account earlier this year. But not without a fight from the companys new rightwing owner, elon musk. Back in may it was first reported that smiths team was feuding with a Major Tech Company<\/a> in some capacity. The details of the fight were unclear based on the Court Records<\/a> at the time. Now we know precisely what went down. It was part of it. As part of his investigation, smith deemed it necessary to view the inner workings of trumps twitter account, although its not currently clear what exactly he was looking for. For the legal filing, quote, on january 17th, 2023, the government applied for and obtained a Search Warrant<\/a> that directed twitter to release data and records related to the real donald trump should or account. Based on affidavits, the District Court<\/a> found probable cause to search the account for signs of criminal offenses. In other words, smith was able to convince a judge that there was reason to believe that don trumps twitter account contain positive cause. But at this point to twitter was in the hands of elon musk, busy Building Public<\/a> images rightwing trolls. The company was operating such a state of manifest disfunction, smith prosecutors couldnt even get through to them, initially. I quote again, the government faced difficulties when it first attempted to serve twitter with a warrant. On january 17th, 2023, the government tried to submit the papers through the companys website, only to find out the website wasnt operative. Two days later the government successfully served twitter through that website. So smith gets through to twitter or on the 19th, and the deadline to comply is the 27th. Quote, on january 25th, when the government contacted fritters counsel to check on the status of traitors compliance, todays council stated that she, quote, had not heard anything about the warrant. Two days before the deadline, twitters lawyer says she had no idea there was even a warrant from the Department Of Justice<\/a> in the first place. At this point not only was Musk Running Twitter<\/a> in a total state of chaos, according to all public accounts we have, it was clear he would stop at nothing to Court Controversy<\/a> and attention for his 44 Billion Dollar<\/a> vanity purchase, which was very quickly losing value. After all, he was already using the platform to spread misinformation to platform neonazis and white supremacists, and, as he told cnbc, nothing could stop him from keeping things as chaotic as possible. Do your tweets or the company . Its in the princess bride. Great movie. Where he confronts the person who killed his father and he says offer me money. Offer me power. I dont care. So you just dont care. Ill say what i want to say. And the consequence of that is losing money, so be it. Last part is gonna be important in just a second. Heres a crucial part of this report deal. Smiths prosecutors had to take steps to make sure musk wouldnt spill the beans about the Search Warrant<\/a>. Quote, the government applied for and obtained a quarter, the District Court<\/a> found a reasonable grounds to believe that disclosing the Warrant Former<\/a> President Trump<\/a> would, quote, seriously jeopardize the Ongoing Investigation<\/a> by giving him, wait for it, an opportunity to destroy evidence, change patterns of behavior, or notify confederates. Put simply, later in the filing quote, the whole point was to avoid tipping off the former president about the warrants existence. Musk wasnt happy he couldnt tell trump about the Search Warrant<\/a>. Four days after the initial deadline, he challenged the entire process, after the deadline, on the grounds he had a free speech right to spill the beans regarding this ongoing criminal investigation of the ex president United States<\/a>. Quote, in its motion challenging the Nondisclosure Order<\/a>, twitter argued the order violated the companys First Amendment<\/a> right to communicate with its subscriber. [laughter] the guy who banned in the platform, former President Trump<\/a>. So trump said were not gonna cooperate until court rules i can talk about and then the court ruled against musk. Moreover, they held twitter in contempt for again missing the deadline to comply with the warrant. This means in addition to access to trumps account, the company had to fork over 350,000 in fines. If youre shocked to find out that Smith Got Access To Trump<\/a> s twitter account, you maybe not be alone. Donald trump claims he is a lot. As well. Today he posted, just found out the Crooked Joe Biden<\/a> attack my twitter account, making it a point not to let me know about this major hit and my civil rights. Our Senior Counsel<\/a> for the committee. Good to have you both. Lets start on the twitter back and forth with you here, lisa. Okay, first of all, how common are these sorts of warrants or requests . The fairly common. I think most American People<\/a> dont understand that when you have Something Like<\/a> a twitter or facebook or instagram account, those companies can be served, as can google, for all sorts of electronic data and Records Associated<\/a> with your account. President trump is no exception here. So they can serve these thirdparty warrants . They can go to the provider and say hey, we want this person, and again, this is for any criminal suspect under investigation, we have probable cause. We have to go to a judge first. You go to twitter and we say to twitter, directly, we have to see this account. Yes. They also apply for Nondisclosure Order<\/a> for the reasons that you referred to in your wind up, which is the same reason, in fact, in the Special Counsel<\/a> wants protective order in this litigation as well. You want to protect the integrity of the investigation. You want to protect the fairness of the trial. And that includes not only protecting witnesses from being tampered with or the jury pool from being tampered with but also to prevent the targeted the investigation from notifying others with whom that person is in contact and who could be under investigation themselves. Sort of dilley era dms, the block is hot kind of warning. Or develop your cover story. What do you mean . Lets say, for example, your dance convene, who is involved with trumps twitter account at the time. When he used it. When he used twitter, right. And if trump have notified of the warrant, you can say to scavino, not only delete your dms, but figure out what youre going to say about things like drafts that i had of tweets that i may have we may have edited between us. One of the things the trailer can gets location data. Where were you when you wrote a particular tweet . Did you added that tweet . Other tweets that are related to your draft folder still . Which electronic disasters had access to those are so an imprint related to those things . Those are the kind of things that i expect twitter will ask for by the Department Of Justice<\/a> and Special Counsel<\/a>s office. Mark, let me ask you about the other document made public today, which is the chesebro memo. Its one of several. First, as someone who investigated january 6th and the various plots that went along with that, whats your Top Line Takeaway<\/a> from this document as Chesebro Sort<\/a> of starts to spell out, you know, what is very hard to look at is a legal playbook and more essentially a power play . I agree, its a significant document, for sure, and it seems to be a pivot point, where the strategy that had been floated weeks prior of getting alternate electors together and get them to meet on the 14th, starts to pivot into the president of the senate strategy, which is the mechanism that they can use to have Vice President<\/a> pence either stop the count or count votes in favor of trump that had gone to biden, that would disrupt the Certification Process<\/a> generally. Its a significant document. The select committee, what was set for us in in that documents, in other documents, later an email to Rudy Giuliani<\/a> from chesebro several days later that lays it all out. It appears a pivot point in the way they are looking at this all strategy of alternate electors. I want to read a bit more for the memo, because we get to the part where, we are structurally the council. Were always which doesnt have any legal significance. Its pure from the political theatrical slash power play. Even if the and the Supreme Court<\/a> lies with congress, letting matters play out this way would guarantee the public attention we riveted around the evidence of political views is by democrats or when the litigation of votes or add to trumps core part of what is happening here is, hes conceding didnt lead the Supreme Court<\/a> when even by what hes doing. In other words, he doesnt think this is actually good law. Now. He doesnt. That puts him in good company with his friend john eastman. But one of the other things that youll notice in this document is he says this is going to work only have three conditions are met. And we know that two of those three conditions were never met, and yet ken chesebro, john eastman, and others in inquire ration with them continue to advance the fake electors and strategy nonetheless. Mark, one of the defenses weve heard from various people involved in this, and those include john eastman, people that are speaking for the ex president , including the ex president , is essentially, this is political hardball. It may be a key, but its not illegal. Its not criminal. And i want to redo what chesebro said in a statement, in his defense. I think this is his lawyer, actually. Mr. Chesebro is asked to provide he applied his legal acumen to these complex legal issues. Based on that exceeding existing legal president , he summarized his finding writings. Whether the campaign relied on that we hope the full indeed Special Counsel<\/a> floyd recognize these issues before deciding who, if anyone, to charge. What do you make of that . Well, im not shocked by that approach. John eastman has made similar arguments in his state bar proceeding, hey im just giving legal advice. But when you look at this, as lisa mentioned, when you look at these documents together in a sequence of events, its very clear that what went from back in november, and idea that we should have contingent electors, backing up for the viewers a little bit, the idea was December 14th Electors<\/a> need to meet. And the hard and fast deadline under the. While law and hey, weve got all these court challenges, and what if we win one of those after December 14th<\/a> . We need to have been protected. That sort of notion in this november memo, but then by the december six memo that youre talking about that was reported on by the New York Times<\/a> yesterday, it sort of, all bets are off. It doesnt matter if theyve won the challenges or whether, as long as there is a litigation pending, at least points out, that was one of the conditions. Thats where the strategy pivoted, that were going to use these electors, whether or not we go to court. Which is what eventually happened. They use the fake elector certificates to pressure mike pence to solve the certification. Its very interesting in the indictment itself, the 45page indictment, it zeroes in on this transgressive moment from a defensible legal strategy undertaken a good faith to what they say is part of a criminal undertaking to defraud the United States<\/a> undertaken in bad faith. And you see here why its undertaken in bad faith. Those conditions i was referring to earlier, he says this can work, provided that they meet in compliance with federal and state law. But thats not what they did. For example, in nevada, they know that the Secretary Of State<\/a> has to preside over the electors meeting. But they knew at the time, chesebro put this in writing, that Barbara Kasky<\/a> wasnt gonna play ball. He also says that there also has to be pending on january six itself, not just after December 14th<\/a>, but on the sixth, there has to be litigation pending, and every one of these states, that plausibly could lead to a trump victory. By December 11th<\/a> itself almost all litigation was dead and we know from the indictment around december 13th, thats when they first get the idea to even file a case in new mexico. That wasnt filed until six minutes before the deadline for certifying those electors. Bad faith all the way down. Marc harris, lisa reuben, thank you both. Coming up, ohio voters sent a resounding message that they will turn out to protect Abortion Rights<\/a>. But first, new concerns about violence from long trumps followers after utah man is killed by fbi agents serving an Arrest Warrant<\/a>. Explicit and graphic threats he made that attracted the attention of law enforcement. Next. This morning fbi agents arrived at a home in provo utah, to arrest a man accused of making serious threats against joe biden and various officials, as well as prosecutors investigating trump. And the urgency of the matter is President Biden<\/a> was on his way to utah today, where he is now, to a veteranshealth care event in Salt Lake City<\/a> tomorrow. The mans most recent threat intimated he would be lying in wait with a sniper rifle when biden arrived. In a statement the fbi said agents were involved in a shooting around 6 15 this morning, and that the man was shot and killed. Agents no agents were injured. The fbi identified the man is craig d. Robertson, and the arrest affidavit, which detailed multiple specific explicit and graphic threats against joe biden, alvin bragg, Kamala Harris<\/a>, and others. Often he would use the same language trump has used. The man had been visited by the fbi once previously, in the spring, and many of his online violent threats were to the fbi agents themselves, particularly after that visit. Joining me now is kyle dunphey, reporter for utah s news. Kyle, what can you tell us first about the man who was killed this morning that they were trying to search, serve the Arrest Warrant<\/a> on . Well, whats clear is that this is someone is much different than what Community Members<\/a> saw. This is a really tightknit community. It wasnt that hard to talk to people who knew robertson. Neighbors described him as the teddy bear of their church. So this is someone who is known for the Woodworking Skills<\/a> more than his politics. He was an elderly man, in his late 70s. He walked with a cane. We know that his mobility was a problem. I think a good way to measure that if he lived about 200 yards from his church. Apparently he had such difficulty walking that he would drive to his church. He was known to be pretty political, but nothing, according to the neighbors or neighbors i talked to suggested he was violent. And that one of the neighbors was really surprised to learn the specifics of this Social Media Posts<\/a>. To be clear, were showing some of those Social Media Posts<\/a> so people can get a sense of him posing with guns, posing with a sniper rifle, posing with a suit to mask himself. And just in terms of the complaint, i want to be clear because sometimes people talk about threats on the internet in those can run an enormous spectrum. These are things like, i am going to shoot alvin bragg at a specific time, in a specific place, with a specific weapon. Things of that nature, according to the fbi. Yeah, he had a long history of making some really charged facebook posts and really specific, really specific threats, as you mentioned. Recently he posted perhaps utah will be six famous is a place where a sniper to get marxist joe biden. He and he had patriotic dreams about standing over the body of gavin newsom and u. S. Attorney general merrick garland. He also threatened Vice President<\/a> Kamala Harris<\/a> and letitia james. And recently he posted asking if the fbi was still monitoring his social media and if they were coming for him he would have a loaded gun if they decided to stop by. So again, really specific targeted threats. Thats laid out in the complaint and once hes charged. With my understanding of the timing here is that at some point he was kicked off a bunch of social media platforms. Obviously some people were flagging these that were alarmed by them. He was paid a visit by the fbi in march, and then its after that where he starts posting on social media light to the fbi. Are you still really my tweets, and i will be prepared for you should you come back, something to that effect. Yeah, exactly. So we dont know exact, we know how long hes been making these really charged complaints. His Facebook Page<\/a> appears to have been taken down. But according to some neighbors i spoke to, the fbi had visited him sometime around march. They had him under surveillance for several months. We also know in the complaint theres a picture taken of him in 2009, of robertson holding a rifle and wearing a guilty suit. But the fbi said that shows his ability to adopt cyber tactics. We know some of the evidence the fbi has dates back on these ten years. The question about what happened this morning, we have very little from the fbi, the fbi involved shooting. This man was shot and killed, we think presumably by the fbi agents. Nobody was injured. Did your reporting shed anymore light on what happened this morning . Yes. I spoke with several of robertsons neighbors, including one who watch the fbi carry out the raid this morning. She didnt hear the trucks pull up, but sometime between six and 6 15 a. M. She heard officers shouting and robertson through a speaker, telling him to come out with his hands up. She looked outside, she saw maybe well over a dozen officers in Tactical Gear<\/a> outside the house. There are some with shields, and nearly everyone had rifles. Most had body armor that read fbi. When he didnt come out, they tried to break down his door. The neighbor i spoke to the things that he had possibly barricaded the door. She described his house is kind of an armory. When they were unsuccessful with that, they broke through his window. Thats how she says they entered his house. Thats when she heard about six gunshots followed by officers yelling in shots fired and he has a gun. Then they heard a barrage of gunshots, so many that the woman i spoke to actually couldnt really count. Then a few moments later, the officers carried robertson outside. They placed him on the sidewalk, and when they could find first aid she said he was bleeding pretty bad. Paramedics showed up shortly after. Thats when they also performed first aid. She believes thats when he was pronounced dead and officers put a sheet over his body and he laid on the sidewalk for about two hours. During this whole incident the officers were reportedly pretty cagey with the neighbors. The people i spoke to never got an explanation from anyone on scene. Kyle dunfee, the desert, news that is fantastic, thorough reporting. Thank you very much for sharing that with us. Thanks for having me, chris. Still ahead, why that scene played out in utah today is one of the arguments for not televising the trial of donald trump. A former Prosecutor Says<\/a> keep the cameras out of the courtroom, next. Ieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. Im a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. Meet the portable blender we can barely keep in stock. Blendjet 2 gives you icecrushing, big blender power onthego. So you can blend up a mouthwatering smoothie, protein shake, or latte wherever you are recharge quickly with any usb port. Best of all, it even cleans itself just blend water with a drop of soap. What are you waiting for . Order yours now from blendjet. Com before they sell out again [ Tires Screeching<\/a> ] jordana, easy on the gas. I gotta wrap this commercial, i think im late on my payment. Its okay, the general gives you a break. Yeah, we let you pick your own due date. Good to know, because this next scene might take a while. For a great low rate, go with the general. The first thing we would say is lets have cameras in the courtroom, and i would hope that the Department Of Justice<\/a> will join in that effort so that we take the curtain away so all americans get to see what is happening. No trumps lawyers seem to be in agreement with a lot of people pushing to have the new trial broadcast to the american public, which i would think seems like a good idea. Having said that, the shooting in provo, utah is the perfect example of trumps rhetoric and how it can fuel violent threats against people. In todays case President Joe Biden<\/a> but also alvin bragg. Rick ackerman who worked on the trial of Richard Nixon<\/a> and watergate, and Charles Coleman<\/a> tried a number of mafia and Organized Crime<\/a> cases. It was difficult if not impossible to persuade ordinary citizens to testify in such cases because they were all fearful of physical retaliation. Even our recipient of power, i was reluctant to force people to testify, not only because of the real danger but because of the impact that fear would have on their testimony before a jury. The trump trials are no different. Joined now by nick ackerman, who servess assistant u. S. Attorney, Southern District<\/a> of new york, and a prosecutor for the brooklyn dea. I really found your piece interesting, particularly because i had been mostly hearing people saying that we should televisit. Transparency, transparency, transparency. This isnt quite a mob trial, right . Donald trump isnt quite a monster. No, but the people that support him, and that hes really a cult leader, and that there are people out there in the cold that will do almost anything, well take the slightest little words that donald trump says an act on them, this wasnt the first instance, by the. Way we had a shooter that was in cincinnati, outside the fbi field office, looking to shoot fbi agents after a Search Warrant<\/a> was executed on maralago. So this is not the first time. Its true. I had forgotten. That the real danger here is, who would want to be in the Witness Stand<\/a> that would be televised to the entire world where they would suddenly become a major target of these people . So nick and i are both former prosecutors, and is someone who worked in the gangs unit, i can also identify with a notion of keeping witnesses safe. And also how difficult it can be if witnesses believe that they are in danger. At the same time, its important to understand, this is not a zero sum question. There is the ability that a judge has to basically curtail what donald trump can talk about and trial to prevent jurors from being seen. Because jurors jurors were not gonna put on tv. But the witnesses, youve got fbi agents, people who do normal jobs. Youre gonna have a lot of very mundane testimony by people, explaining charts, explaining records. These people should never be put in that position. And then youve got people like cassidy hutchinson, who worked in the white house, who after she even testified on the january six committee, had to go into hiding with security. I mean, this is not a game. Donald trump has absolutely no compassion and no concern for peoples safety. The Inflection Point<\/a> that we are at as a country, in terms of the level of erosion of trust that exists in our democratic institutions, the criminal Justice System<\/a> being one of them, absolutely calls for some level of transparency. Let me just say this. In some ways theres a bit of courage before the house course. We dont have a trial date yet. And i think both of these are totally legitimate arguments. I tend to favor transparency, im a journalist, but i hear what youre saying. The press has got to cover these trials a lot better. For the Snow Tub Substitute<\/a> for tv. Let me just say, this independent of that, the fact of the menace that hangs over this is just this inescapable fact. Even if you dont broadcast the trial. Heres the ad thats running. Its currently, apparently, running in atlanta, where trump, i think his pack is taking out an ad against the prosecutors prosecuting him. Heres a snippet. Take a look. How far were the most corrupt president in history go to keep republicans from winning back the white house . Meet the cast of unscrupulous accomplices he has assembled to get trump. Alvin bragg, the radical new york prosecutor who refuses to prosecute violent criminals. Letitia james, The Socialist<\/a> who ran on the promise i will go after trump. Welcome to the fraud squad. Im donald j trump, and they approve this message. And theres a lot more, theres a long thing on fani willis, fani willis has also trying to put the threats he is getting. You get the guy today in utah, one of his threats, specifically alvin bragg, im going to do this thing to alvin bragg in this place. Independent of whether the trial is broadcast or not, how does the system deal with this . Normally if you are a normal defendant. And you do this kind of stuff, the judge will put you in the slammer immediately. The problem here is, all of these judges are afraid to do anything with donald trump and put him in, to incarcerate him until such time as a jury of his peers finds him guilty. That is a big issue. That would be the normal. Thing i also think the part of the issue is the toothpaste is already out of the two. Youve allowed so much to take place that at this point its very difficult to corral the different tentacles that donald trump and his acolytes have placed in terms of shaping the public narrative around the criminal Justice System<\/a> and those at the helm of it. I do think at some point we are going to see a judge, whether here in new york, or fulton county, or in d. C. , play some level of limitation on what donald trump can and cannot say. I think it will be in the better of everyone who is involved, in their interest, for their safety, and for, ultimately, the unencumbered progression of this trial. You think we will see judges do some like i said, i think is a narrowly tailored way to achieve the end a balancing the publics interest in being able to see whats going on during this case, but also or even the run up to it. Because i do think there is this First Amendment<\/a> issue. Guy is running for president. So if those arent completely ludicrous concerns. But First Amendment<\/a> doesnt cover trying to threaten witnesses, trying to do seattle statements to try and get people riled up so they go out and actually harm and kill witnesses. Thats what hes doing. But thats in the eye of the beholder. This is a delicate line that donald trump knows that intentionally because hes pushing those boundaries, which is at some point judges need to rein him in. But its gonna be a lot tougher to rein him in if this is televised in the entire world sees it, because if there is one thing that donald trump excels at, its reality tv, and he knows how to play to the camera. He knows how to make expressions. He doesnt have to testify. But you know, something that might force him into testifying if hes in front of the cameras. This would also be kind of a way that the system would not be working properly because people will do Different Things<\/a> because the cameras are there. But we also know that with those distillations and all that emotion that hes going to do sitting right there is a defendant, hes likely walking himself even faster into a conviction. So youre talking record of a Public Opinion<\/a> but we know thats gonna help him get convicted. Nick akerman, Charles Coleman<\/a>, thank you both. Still to come, another vote, another blow for the people trying to ban abortion in america. Why does the Republican Party<\/a> refuse to learn from its repeated serial missteps on the issue . Next. [ Tires Screeching<\/a> ] jordana, easy on the gas. I gotta wrap this commercial, i think im late on my payment. Its okay, the general gives you a break. Yeah, we let you pick your own due date. Good to know, because this next scene might take a while. For a great low rate, go with the general. The virus that causes shingles is sleeping. In 99 of people over 50. Its lying dormant, waiting. And could reactivate. Shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. And it could wake at any time. Think youre not at risk for shingles . Its time to wake up. Because shingles could wake up in you. If youre over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. With just five months to go, republican president ial candidates are crisscrossing the state, trying to get traction in the allimportant first in the nation. There is a notable Common Thread<\/a> in the appeal to iowa voters. Theyre touting their antiabortion bona fides and praising the republican governor of that state for passing and signing the six week abortion ban. I pointed over 300 federal judges into 300 great Supreme Court<\/a> justices. Last year, those justices, and you know exactly what they did, they ruled to end roe v. Wade. We did a phenomenal thing for our country and for life. Im prolife, i dont apologize for it. I welcome progress on the right to live here on iowa and states around the country. Were proud of what we did in florida, the heartbeat bill, we commit reynolds there for doing the same. Weve seen of the total abortion ban signed by last month, almost exactly blocked by the courts. Well it might seem like nothing new for republicans campaigning against abortion, its proven to be just really bad politics. Weve seen in the 411 days since all over the country, americans are overwhelmingly backing Abortion Rights<\/a> and repudiating the Dobbs Decision<\/a> took them away. In every state, every state where abortion has been on the ballot, conservative states, liberal states, first in kansas, six weeks after the Supreme Court<\/a> ruling. Then in vermont, montana, michigan, kentucky, california, november midterms. Every time voters came out in droves to resoundingly reject the republican position on abortion. Last night, it happened again in ohio. Voters there overwhelmingly defeated the measure, brushed onto the ballot in the dead of summer special election they wouldve raised the threshold required to amend the state constitution. It was a thinly veiled effort by state republicans to make it harder to pass a Measure Enshrining<\/a> Abortion Rights<\/a> which would be up for vote in november, and now will only need a majority to state change the state constitution. Its one conservative noting, quote, the ohio result needs to be a five alarm fire for the prolife movement. Meet the portable blender we can barely keep in stock. Blendjet 2 gives you icecrushing, big blender power onthego. So you can blend up a mouthwatering smoothie, protein shake, or latte wherever you are recharge quickly with any usb port. Best of all, it even cleans itself just blend water with a drop of soap. What are you waiting for . Order yours now from blendjet. Com before they sell out again wow, you get to watch all your favorite stuff. Blendits to die for. Hey and its all right here. Streaming was never this easy, you know. This is the way. You really went all out didnt you . Um, its called commitment. Could you turn down the volume . Here, you can try. Get way more into what your into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. Ohio, we did it. We did it. After a contentious special election with a 20 Million Dollar<\/a> price tag, ohio voters have rejected issue one. They made it more difficult now with 94 of it in, no vote stands at 56 , yes about stands at 44 . Last night, voters in ohio overwhelmingly rejected a Ballot Measure<\/a> that wouldve made it hard to pass a proposed constitutional amendment enshrining Abortion Rights<\/a> in that state. That will be on the ballot this fall. A major victory for both the Abortion Rights Movement<\/a> as well as democracy. For Abortion Rights<\/a>, the seventh time in a row the Supreme Court<\/a> but the state initiative when. When can you take away from last nights result . Again, in a state that donald trump won twice, as republican president ial candidates continue day after day to campaign against abortion and fort vance. Jess mcintosh is a veteran democratic strategist. David plouffe served as the Campaign Manager<\/a> for the Obama Campaign<\/a> Senior Adviser<\/a> to president obama, both of them join me now. Jess, let me ask you, youve got in this split screen. You are in iowa saying a six week ban is great. You support that, im going to saying the dobbs was all on me. Voters in ohio are coming out august at like 75 of the midterm level in an off year august election. What does that say to you . It says to me that abortion. The right to abortion is a consensus issue. We all agree on this. What do california and kansas have in common . It sounds like the start of the joke. What they have in common is that they both care about Abortion Rights<\/a>. Every state in the country does. Weve been told for as long as ive been doing politics, and his lungs have been alive, that abortion is one of the most contentious issues we have. Is the most for lies in, its a wedge issue. The fact is that is just not. We call this a foundational right. What we mean by that is that lots of other parts of your lives are standing on the foundation that the right to decide when and whether to start a family is yours. You take that away, all of these other things start to crumble. You takeaway rose versus wade. Women and men are starting to see the reality of that. It is horrifying, not just the deaths and victims of Sexual Assault<\/a> that cant get the justice they need, but women that are in their late 30s, and wanting pregnancies, and are worried about what states they can travel to for work because if something goes wrong and they cant get the care they need. The foundation is crumbling. Its crumbling under republicans. David, i see every time one of these happen, we quote one of the tweets. Every time you see a micro genre of republican political operatives taking to social media to be like, guys, are you watching this . We have to change course. He will see occasionally see some panic, some people like, oh, this is the way out of the problem. Nobody seems to be coming up with the issue. Ohio republicans think that their way out was to sneak this pass so that they could change the rules of the game and create a threshold. What do you think is going on in those circles, and particularly at the president ial level as they think about how to message this. Chris, these are maybe street operatives or touche thinking about the general elections. But in the center of the electorate swing voters, but theyre almost everybody serving in washington, obviously the most important here is substantive angles to this, which is what we see every day. Its the devastation that the Supreme Court<\/a> has wrought. The republicans are trying to dig in further. Basically what we see here is in terms of politics, where theyre trying to do in ohio, they basically want to enshrine it to the country the 25 of americans should be able to make the decisions on everything. Who wins elections, what we can vote on, at the end of the day that is donald trump with a surprise victory in 2016. 18 reserve disaster, lost in 2022, a disaster. We that is a little much, but certainly underperformed because they continue to embrace the hardcore maga 20 25 , and basically antagonize, frighten, that electorate. We will see numbers reported on suggesting that even the way this in august election, turnout amongst young voters was high, and so a think at the end of the day, this is a party that is incapable because they live in a Fantasy World Of Fox<\/a> and breitbart, talk radio, theyre really not doing anything to make any, in my view, i think we lost him there. Let me ask you this, just, you referred to it as a foundational right. One thing that ive really been struck by, and again, i was a little bit agnostic on this because people, there is a lot going on. The attention of the news cycle can really shift, things that are really important, they sometimes get a little back seated. Its now people are paying, tension is not important. Thats an excellent point. It does not mean that somebody s not important, voters are going to have a front and wind. Its not just dobbs happening and there is a big backlash, it is the endurance of this as the issue that is so striking to me and i think so freaking out the republicans paying attention. It is not going anywhere is the thing. Even if they had managed to somehow macgyver that 60 threshold in there as an and run, i dont even know that that would be it. What happened yesterday was 60. 1 of ohioans turning out a, again, in the middle of august. Everyone is seeing the out of office replies every time descended. Nobody is paying attention to anything right now except for 61 of ohio voters to go up for this Ballot Measure<\/a> and considering how they had been lied to about what they were voting on by the Republican Party<\/a>, this was one of the most shameless misdirections that i have seen when it comes to disinformation about what youre putting on the ballot. Republicans in ohio are trying to tell people that this was not about abortion. Theyre trying to say that they were relying, traditionally was somehow about trans kids, people dont buy, that theyre just not buying it. The loudness of it as we were just discussing, its really not going anywhere. Going to get more intense as time goes on. The effects of the bans become more apparent. Absolutely, chris. This is going to be with us until ultimately there is a court the reinstates this, or congress does. Every, day is not just the news, people know people that are affected by this. Its going to color our politics for years, maybe decades, i hope its not the case. But absolutely this is only going to intensify. A very much agree with that. And, again i think the bans, the aftermath of, them and the fact that theyre running on bans and more bans means that the sealants of it cannot be reduced by republican candidates as well. Thats not really my issue. Mcintosh, david plouffe, thank you very much. That is all in on this is all is by republican candidates as well. Thank you very much. That is all in on this wednesday night. Alex wagner tonight starts right now. Good evening,to alex. It turns out restricting bodily autonomy isnt something the American People<\/a> forget p about. It is striking howrg robust d consistent a proroe majority is in this country when put to the ballot in the aftermath of dobbs. And i agree with you, chris, i think this is an issue that probably picks up momentum as time goes on because the stories, the anecdotes, this is your neighbor, your friends sister, your coworkers daughter","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia902706.us.archive.org\/21\/items\/MSNBCW_20230810_070000_All_In_With_Chris_Hayes\/MSNBCW_20230810_070000_All_In_With_Chris_Hayes.thumbs\/MSNBCW_20230810_070000_All_In_With_Chris_Hayes_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240707T12:35:10+00:00"}