Levels, it tends to hurt the person, who is sort of more guilty in terms of proof. The psychology of that is fantastic. Now i wanted to ask you, now that youve had a little bit of a chance to chew on this. If you feel like if there is anything particularly problematic controversial, or anything that feels like an overreach in his indictment that might be vulnerable, in terms of people challenging the prosecution . No, right now it looks strong and we focused on the statement at the Press Conference about 19 defendants being tried together and i think that is controversial. And i dont think will happen but that is under the indictment itself. Really the issue is that there were 19 defendants. And the thing about 19 defendants is that there is a lot of opportunities for cooperation. And weve already talked about. Rudy giuliani being somebody who might flip. Indeed, the whole doctrine and the conspiracy doctrine is written to encourage people to flip. And when rico was enacted. 50 years ago, and in georgia, in 1980, it was structured in a way to be a Super Conspiracy doctrine to really be able to throw the book at people and ok encourage them to cooperate and turnover states evidence. So to me, the big thing for the news tonight, after reading the indictment and watching the Press Conference. Is that of course donald trump is entitled to innocence but The Big Picture here, is donaldr trump, for so long got away with so much, and it started well before he was president , we with all of his attempts to delay litigation and then of course, he did as president with the russia investigation. And, you know he got away with it. And those things for all sorts n of terrible reasons. Did culminate in prosecutions. In the fourth jurisdiction. And you know a lot is now catching up with him, that is what the indictment signals. He got away with a lot for a long time. But that playbook isnt working again. He will try it, he will delay and try all sorts of imaginations to put political pressure, but its really hard with four different very solid indictments. And this one has a lot of detail that the evidence didnt have. I have another proposed set of for this proceeding. Which is a collectors that have not yet been charged. Because we have Fake Electors charged in michigan. Ct we have Fake Electors under investigation and a few other states and we have got now State Charges against take electors in georgia. That seem very rock level in other states. And David James Shaver and kathleen austin. You are charged with the offense of impersonating a public officer. For someone accused individually of a crime and together with et unindicted coconspirators, unlawfully falsely had themselves out as the duly elected and qualified president ial electors, from the state of georgia. And that is just one of the charges brought against the Fake Electors for nothing other than pretending to be real electors when they were fake ones. And the kind of charge this is, is not some unique idiosyncrasy, this type of law exists in every state in the country and its going to raise the kinds the question in pennsylvania. In arizona and new mexico and nevada and all of the other states where this hasnt been charged, wont it . Sure. We have seen this trend so far but it does turn on the very specific language of the individual statutes in the states. One of the things that viwe are hearing from our experts in georgian law, from january 3rd e on, which was the day after the phone call, when we got the phone call, the trump phone call to georgia, is that georgia does have very specific laws that go straight at what was happening in the phone s call. And we see that it goes straight at the Fake Electors scheme. It will also come down to the language that was used in all of this. Because sincere but ologies. Its a new moment device. As i so frequently on. And cheese borough, especially in pennsylvania, with the Fake Electors pushing back. They are trepidations about attending the b Fake Electors and with the language and around the had to be amended because of the pennsylvania electors were skeptical about being Fake Electors. They wanted electors that only want electors if there is a wednesday of the litigation. There are only two states in which they have account, we have seen to in those five, we see two states weather have h been charges. Absolutely, i had the same reaction when you saw the michigan stuff which was essentially where the other states, because you now have two states with the blueprint, yes, it is clear that you have to worry about the pennsylvania language and you have to worry about the federal indictment, this idea that there wasnt a part of a scheme, and due to some real electors, you want to make sure you are separating the ones were duped and the ones who were not. There are going to be statements, and this is a very carefully tailored charge, as who simply filed things that were false. It was interesting, after we saw the jack smith indictment. The trump indictment, we did that very quickly have new reporting, that despite the fact that the indictment had ad been brought. Jack smiths grand jury in d. C. Was continuing to send out additional subpoenas to get more evidence and more witnesses on the Fake Electors. Raising the prospect that the Fake Electors scheme could produce additional charges against Trump Federal charges, or that some of the Fake Electors could be charged in the federal under those federal in nevada, there was a lot of information but not a lot of well, there was a lot of talk what is it, hat and no cattle. Thats what we say in new york. For nevada, there might be more to come. Its a little bit weird to be talking about the fourth indictment of the former president , just this year. Like, hey, what is next . Like you wet your appetite and expect a new indictment every 20 days now. And the fact that this many people had been charged and we are still probably waiting on additional charges if not a Superseding Indictment or even a new jurisdiction. It just shows you what the trump era is like. This is the the defendant trump era. While he is the favorite for the republican nomination in 2024, and the first republican president ial debate this week. Im sorry, i dont mean to laugh, it is absurd, the arraignment could be friday and the debate could be wednesday. That said, the debates are id just people auditioning to be his running mate and while that is a humiliating thing to say to your fellow republicans, he is probably right, while hes now looking at at least half a dozen trial dates between now and when he will be crowned the republican president ial nominee at the Republican National convention. Hes one onof those candidates, that is mike pence, who was already and just becomes a more important witness every day. And there is male, that is the thing that hes not factoring in, is that he continues speaking the way thato hes been speaking and continues the threatened judges and witnesses in the way that in he has. I think that one if not more of these judges will take action. Andy georgia bail statute is very tough in the ricoh context. So it will be really interesting to see. You could say that a judge could lock him up . I think judges will want to do this incrementally. As i mentioned, it is possible to run for president and not threaten witnesses. So he doesnt get to say, well, wait a second, you cant do this to me because im running for president. There are ways to do that and which is exactly what a judge has said to him. So obviously, it will be incremental punishment. I dont think he understands like how firm abba background the judge has. The Bold New American Political Front Of Running for president without overtly threatening with the witnesses, that are potentially testifying against you and one of your halfdozen forthcoming trials. Thats going to do it for this part of our special coverage but our special coverage live bu on msnbc continues right now with our dear friend on the 11th hour. Good evening once again. Our breaking News Coverage continues tonight. Donald john trump along with do Rudy Giuliani, mark meadows and several other senior trump allies has been indicted on multiple crimes related to attempts to overturn georges 2020 election results. Fulton county benny willis spoke about it just minutes ago. Today, based on information, developed by that investigation, a Fulton County grand jury returned a trivial indictment. Charging 19 individuals with di violations of georgia law arising from a criminal conspiracy to overturn the results of the 2020 president ial election in this state. The indictment includes, 41 Felony Counts and is 97 pages long. Please remember that everyone charged in this bill of indictment is presumed innocent. Room. The indictment returned after an absolutely marathon a day of Witness Testimony to the grand jury, the charges are the result of a Fulton County d. A. Willis is 2 1 2 year sprawling investigation, trump has denied any wrongdoing and accused willis of quote, election interference, while running for president. Trump has already been indicted of course on three other criminal cases this year, with that lets get smarter with the leadoff panel at this late hour, nbcs National Politics reporter john allen, Veteran Federal Prosecutor and former u. S. Attorney barb mcquaide, and and it msnbc political contributor and very busy reporterry, New York Times chie White House Correspondent peter baker and former new york prosecutor and civil rights attorney, charles. Barbara, thank you for continuing to stay with us. I want to start with this trump and 18 others. You think all 19 are going to go to trial or will we see plea deals before then . It seems all unlikely that all 19 would go to trial in a r. I. C. O. Case it is not uncommon to see a large number of defendants charged but by the time you get to trial, that is in part because there is often a hierarchy in a r. I. C. O. Case that is the definition of a r. I. C. O. Enterprise that there is a kingpin at the top and people at the middle levels and there are underlings and often times the underlings see that they have a lot of Criminal Exposure but they have a lot of value to the government as cooperating witnesses. I can see some defendants ending up cooperating and paring down the number of defendants to a small number before the case goes to trial. Charles, there are still 30, 30 unnamed coconspirators, what do we need to know about that . What we need to know, as we are talking about everything in this indictment. Everything that jack smith has v put out in terms of his cooperators and people giving them information is not comparable to what willis has up her sleeve for this prosecution. That is something that we need to wait pay close attention to. For the past 90 minutes we have been digging into this indictment. But lets talk about why it actually matters, this is not just another indictment. This is something that is probably more of a concern to donald trump than some federal cases hes facing because he has no way out. With respect to donald trump being able to try to maneuver himself into a federal pardon for example, in either of the two federal indictments that ish facing he has an avenue for escape with respect to willis, number one you are talking about minimum jail time with respect to any of the recalled y charges you already made that clear. It is part of adthe georgia statute, and youre also talking about the fact that the Pardon Process in georgia is entirely different. So this is one of the types of cases that when youre talking about a r. I. C. O. Case you have more and more people involved. And none of these people, Rudy Giuliani is a former attorney, none of these people have ever been in this position before. So now youre talking about people who have never faced this type of scrutiny or pressurey and their ability to cooperate and get information and potentially throw donald trump under the bus because he cant offer them anything so this is far more dangerous than anything that he has currently on the table with respect to all of his dealings and that is important to understand. Lets talk about those lawyers, peter earlier tonight our colleagues at how stunning it is that as well resourced as the former president of the United States is, one would think that he would have a lot stronger senior lawyers than this. Shocked that he would be getting this bad legal advice. Doesnt it say a lot about donald trump, he has shown us that it doesnt matter who his lawyer is, hes not listening. Well hes not listening and he doesnt treat his lawyers well, remember he has burned through half of the bar it seems like. Lawyers he hasnt paid and lawyers that hes lied to and lawyers he disagrees with. And lawyers who he doesnt like. While we havent seen the lawyers we are seeing now, not any lawyers that we saw at the beginning, represented we are not seeing any lawyers represented during a second impeachment trial. We are not seeing any lawyers that we saw a year ago, he burns like hes constantly looking for his boy cone, his friendship with cohen, and became a new york you know, rainmaker and in the legal sphere and was a cutthroat and eventually just a disbarred lawyer, that is what donald trump wants and nobody has ever met that standard as far as hes concerned. Maybe because lawyers looked how it all turned out for cohen, lets look at the fact that this in the state of georgia and the rest that donald trump took there. Even if he was successful, georgia only has 16 electoral votes. Trump lost 570, how likely is it that we could see more charges in other states. It is certainly possible as we have seen the evidence that is presented in this conspiracys that other states can look at what is going on in georgia and say that we are going to look into this ourselves, the other point i think charles was getting into a little bit. At the federal level, we will be looking at the evidence be going into, just one last thing, charles brought up Rudy Giuliani, it is amazing to me that Rudy Giuliani is charged under a r. I. C. O. Statute because he was famous as a u. S. Attorney and famous for Pioneering Racketeering Law , to take out the mob in new york. In 1985, he took out the five major families, the heads of them, how the tables have turned. Greg, you are in the courtroom today but what was unique was at that so were we. It was televised and this trial unlike the others that are federal will most likely be televised. Much like the january 6th hearings. How much will that matter to the American People . I think we saw a glimpse of that. How much of matters today, with being able to see the judge and being able to see the deliberations and to be able to see Donald Trumps reaction live rather than through the prism of a photographer or a drawing. That is another example of why georgia will be unique we mentioned earlier, how donald trump cannot stop this investigation if elected president , he cant order fani willis to abandon the case like he could potentially do with the Justice Department, he cannot pardon himself and the R Georgia Pardons Process is different as well because the governor doesnt have unilateral power to part pardon donald trump, even if he wanted to, we dont expect Governor Brian Kemp has a soft spot for donald trump. Peter how deming will that be to the Misinformation Machine if this is televised, even tonight, what did fox news have on, Paul Manafort, Donald Trumps former campaign chair, who was jailed for tax evasion, talking about the twotiered system of justice, right, ted cruz, a u. S. Senator was standing outside of the courtroom as though he was a reporter talking about joe biden , villainization the Justice System for his own political game. How much will that make it difficult to push this information or deflect if this thing ends up on tv . That is a great question, what we have seen so far is expectations that an indictment or two or three and eventually four would somehow change the fo public view, that hasnt been the case up until now. Of course donald trump has donea better on republican supporters after the first three indictments, so the question is, what a trial be different . What a trial presenting evidence day in and day out especially televised when americans are watching what it make a difference . That is unknown, we can answer, we are in uncharted territory. Traditionally i think a televised trial would be important for the public to get an unfiltered view. As you said, as you outlined i think people have in fact made up their minds and whether they are open to rethinking that it is a really big question. We are in a polarized moment and people will interpret evidence and information and indictments and Everything Else it seems through the lens of their preconceived decision. Trump is a serial Lawbreaker Tr that is finally getting the justice he deserves or hes being persecuted for his political standing by the deep state. And the people bhave not gone off those positions for quite a while. Lets stay with uncharted are unprecedented, because d