Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240703 : vimarsana.com

MSNBCW The July 3, 2024

No part in this. We all know that trumps promise to testify was just dishonest bravado, and now the defense has begun its case, its becoming increasingly clear that trump will not be called. Plus, a whole lot of things happened while i was on vacation, including the news that an upside down distress flag flew over Supreme Court justice sam alitos home. Tonight, ill explain why alito and others are in such distress that they think they need a trump dictatorship to solve their problems. But we begin tonight with these five words from the prosecution in Donald Trumps hush money election interference trial. Your honor, the people rest. After 15 days and 21 witnesses, the prosecution handed over the reins to the defense who began making their case this afternoon, beginning with testimony from Robert Costello, a criminal lawyer with ties to rudy giuliani. Costello was in talks to represent trumps former lawyer, Michael Cohen, in 2018, as cohen faced federal indictment for taking out the very helock loan at issue in this case. The one he used to pay off Stormy Daniels for the benefit of the trump president ial campaign. Which the Trump Campaign then lied about in their Business Records. Within 15 minutes of being on the stand, judge juan merchan lost his patience with the Visibility Reactions to the objections to costellos testimony and the judge cleared the courtroom to admonish the witness. If you dont like my ruling, you dont say geez, adding costello cant strike anything because the judge is the only person who can strike anything. You dont give my side eye and you dont roll your eyes. Costello said he understood and well get to more on the defenses case later. First, Michael Cohen wrapped up his fourth day on the Witness Stand Today and his third under crossexamination. Which at times was meandering and kind of hard to follow as trumps defense attorney todd blanche focused primarily on cohens character. Trying to paint him as a liar, a cheat, someone who could not be trusted, he was just out for revenge. As blanche wrapped his crossexamination, he tried to land a final blow in front of the jury, asking cohen, do you have a financial interest in the outcome of this case . Cohen responded, yes, sir. Blanche then asks the question of today, whether a conviction benefits you financially. To which Prosecutor Susan Hoffinger said, asked and answered, your honor. Judge merchan said i will allow it. You can answer it. And perhaps to blanches surprise, was cohens response. The answer is no. Blanche asked, it doesnt . Cohen added, its better if he is not, for me, because it gives me more to talk about in the future. Blanche spent much of the day air punching trying to throw multiple theories against the wall with hopes one would stick for at least one juror. Including that cohen was too consumed with his own Business Dealings during october 2016 when the Stormy Daniels payment was made, such that his recollections about his calls and dealings with trump are especially suspect. There was the theory that trumps payments to cohen were just part of a Retainer Agreement as trumps lawyer. And there was the claim that Nondisclosure Agreements like the one Stormy Daniels signed are very common and not illegal. During redirect, the prosecutor knocked each of these bowling pins down one by one. Hoffinger, were you too busy in october 2016 to finalize the Stormy Daniels pay off with mr. Trump . Cohen, no, maam. Hoffinger, was the 420,000 payment that you were owed as reimbursement, did that have anything to do with the Retainer Agreement . Cohen, no, maam. On the ndas, hoffinger, under the circumstances of this nda with Stormy Daniels that you testified to, was it perfectly legal under those circumstances . Cohen, no, maam. She then made sure to clarify for the jurors. Hoffinger, are you actually on trial here in this case . Cohen, no, maam. Hoffinger, are you a witness here . Cohen, yes. And again, it needs to be repeated that despite being the one whose prosecution and testimony gave birth to this case, Michael Cohen is essentially battling cleanup in this case against individual one, meaning the case against donald trump doesnt rest on the testimony just of Michael Cohen. Nearly Everything Cohen has testified to has already been corroborated by evidence entered into the record by other witnesses, documents, emails, Text Messages, and audio recordings. Its likely well ver a lot about that evidence again by the prosecution, next tuesday, when judge merchan has scheduled Closing Arguments to begin. Closing arguments could have started later this week, but merchan ruled this morning that due to the upcoming call day weekend, he does not want there to be such a large gap between the Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions, and the start of deliberations. Joining me now is lisa reuben, msnbc legal correspondent, duncan levin, Criminal Defense Attorney and former prosecutor for the manhattan District Attorneys office, and lockland cartwright, former executive editor for the national enquirer. Hes currently a Special Correspondent for the hollywood reporter. Lisa, let me start with you. Characterize what happened in court beyond what i have said just now. You have given a really good summary, joy, but i think what happened today can best be characterized as exhaustion and exasperation. Michael cohen was on crossexamination for the third consecutive day. At times not only did todd blanches crossexamination seem meandering but it was really repetitive. There were lots of Subject Matters that were covered again and again. That having been said, there were a couple surprises and not ones that were favorable to the defense. I think the other theme of today is whatever advantage the defense was enjoying on thursday afternoon when they closed, that dissipated for them today through two different circumstances. One is that the remaining crossexamination of Michael Cohen really didnt land any punches and in fact cohen got to punch back. And the second is that Robert Costello, who is that other witness that they called today who was sort of trying to function as Michael Cohens lawyer despite not having ever been hired by Michael Cohen, he himself was a little bit of a disaster on the stand, as you recognize, and the jury, while they didnt see necessarily judge Merchan Chastise him, they saw all of the audible and visible reactions that costello had to being stymied in answering questions that the judge didnt want answered, and repeatedly, costello tried to talk over the sustained objections or said things like, geez, or rolled his eyes and things like that. I really have never seen a witness behave like that in court and on demeanor alone, Robert Costello gets a big fat f. Lockland, i want to go to you on this. There was a lot of talk leading up to Michael Cohen, all over tv, of people saying, oh, hes going to be a disaster. This is going to be horrible for the prosecution. Hes got this record of criminality, as if he was a bank robber before donald trump made him do crimes for him. The guy is a lawyer. I said repeatedly on the show, number one, hes an attorney. He knows how to act in court. Hes been in front of a judge before. Number two, hes a practiced Television Guest and host. He hosts a freaking podcast. So i assumed he was going to be a solid witness. Make of it what you will, Michael Cohens ability to just answer the questions, yes, sir, no, sir, be succinct, get it done, and this guy costello, who seems to be the witness that a lot of people thought Michael Cohen was going to be. Yeah, its extraordinary, when you juxtapose the two of them. Michael cohen, cool, calm, collected, under pressure over the last four days that hes been on the stand. The defense have been continually trying to niggle at him and try to get a reaction, and he has been, yes, maam, no, maam. Hes been incredibly steady in the Witness Stand. And then we have bob costello come on this afternoon and within the first 15 minutes, the judge has to ask the jury to leave to admonish him for his behavior on the stand. If im the jury looking at the First Real Defense witness being bob costello and how he behaved this afternoon, compared to Michael Cohen, that would not have left a good impression on me. Duncan, welcome to the show. How unusual is it for a witness and a judge to get into it the way were just reading the accounts of it. Im sure it was quite dramatic in person. How unusual is that, and in this courtroom, how damaging could that be for the defense case . Well, they have clearly gotten off to a terrible start here. Its very unusual to be slapped down in this way, but this type of behavior by a witness is one that the defense clearly should have gotten under control far before they ever called him to the stand. You remember, todd blanche got off on the wrong foot when the crossexamination of Michael Cohen, too, having his first question to Michael Cohen be objected to and the objection sustained right out of the bat, right off the bat, because he was asking personal questions about didnt you call me this and didnt you call me that . The judge is clearly exhausted and exasperated with this defense at this point in the trial. And so its just theyre off to a bad start. This is a witness who probably did not need to be called. Theyre calling him to basically try to destroy Michael Cohen, but they could try to destroy Michael Cohen just in their closing argument. They dont need to call Robert Costello. Robert costello is a witness who Michael Cohen already testified on direct examination that he lied to because Robert Costello was going to talk to trump about whatever cohen said, so hes a witness that they really didnt need to call. To get off on this footing, particularly on their first and maybe their only witness, is just a misstep by the defense that was an unforced error. An unforced error probably because trump wanted them to do it. It seems like the defense, that seems to be the characterization every day, is theyre waging a defense that probably if they had a more normal client, they wouldnt. Theyre just doing whatever trump wants and attacking the people he doesnt like. And sort of trying to belittle them on the stand. Lets talk a little bit about this attempt to undermine cohen and literally try to accuse him essentially of perjury. There is this situation where Michael Cohen is trying to get to trump to get his money back. Hes not getting the money back and he needs the money back. He reaches out to schiller who is Donald Trumps guy thats traveling with him, and heres this photo. This is from october 24, 2016. This is a rally in tampa, florida, that trump is attending. Keith schiller is there. Hes always with trump. Michael cohen is trying to get in touch with him. And we have now the still of the phone call. We dont have video of the phone call, but we have a still of it. This is what is said on the call. Nobody is thinking about michael. This is Michael Cohen talking. You understand . And despite what like for example you know, what the earlier conversation, you know, and who else would have done that for somebody . Who else . Meaning pay that money to Stormy Daniels. He said i did. Whats the significance of that, lisa . There is an attempt to use that against cohen. Yeah, i want to decouple those two things. You showed one piece of evidence that i think was really helpful for the prosecution and then i want to talk about the second. The picture of Keith Schiller and donald trump shows them walking off a stage at 7 57 p. M. In tampa, florida, on october 24th. That is five minutes before cohen connects with schiller on the phone. Thats the phone call that cohen in his direct testimony remembered that he asked schiller to pass the phone to trump so that he and trump could solidify the arrangement to pay Stormy Daniels in october of 2016. The defense having found some other Text Messages between schiller and cohen about an annoying 14yearold who was harassing cohen by phone and schiller basically saying call me, tried to play gotcha with Michael Cohen and say thats not really why you called Keith Schiller on october 24th. You called Keith Schiller because of this annoying 14yearold. But showing that picture as the prosecution did today, shows that they were together and it is credible as Michael Cohen claimed today, that he could have accomplished two birds with one storm, in fact talking to schiller about the calls and then passing the phone on to trump, and just making sure that they were eye to eye about that payment. And thank you for clarifying that. And then the second piece of it is a separate situation where hes having trouble getting his money back, and sort of the urgency of getting trump to respond to pay him back. Did they do any damage on trying to portray cohen as essentially just mad because he didnt get a job, he didnt get what he wanted out of trump . Did any of that seem to go anywhere for the defense . I dont think so. So the call that they played was between cohen and keith davidson, almost a full year later, while he is in the process of being repaid. You can tell that Michael Cohen at that point is thinking through how betrayed that he feels. Its not a secret that Michael Cohen felt betrayed. Its not a secret that people close to Michael Cohen felt betrayed. In fact, the defense what did you say . He wrote a book about it. Thats true, and the defense made him go through a bunch of texts with his then college aged daughter about the jobs she was hoping he would get. His disappointment is evident. I dont think its in contention. I dont think the call did much for the defense today. Lockland, the thing is, it seems to me that so much of this case on the defense side has become an attempt to sort of disparage Michael Cohen and Stormy Daniels personally. What i havent read through as im reading through all the notes, the wonderful notes from our legal team, is a defense to the actual alleged crime. Where is the counternarrative . We have been at this for weeks and weeks. The defense has not established a counternarrative. I mean, explain to me all the bits of paper that we have seen in this case. Give me a reason that donald trump is signing these checks. And they havent been able to produce this. This is a copper bottom case. If you even take Michael Cohen out of it and theres a reason that cohen went last here, because we were able to establish a lot of this through david pecker was corroborated right through to hope hicks and everyone else in between. And you know, were still, were days away from closing, next tuesday, still the defense has not put up a counternarrative to explain away all of the bits of paper. So take cohen out of it, and you still have a very strong documents case, and without a proper defense to explain all of this. And duncan, you also have Michael Cohen literally convicted for the same thing, which its very difficult to decouple them when the crimes that he is being disparaged for are the crimes that donald trump participated allegedly with him in. I want you to get to the importance of what the instructions to the jury will mean in this case. Because there hasnt been a counternarrative, how do those instructions play into how this plays out . Sure, and a lot of people see Jury Instructions being a very boring thing that is just nothing they have to Pay Attention to. But there are really three elements to this offense that the d. A. s office needs to prove. The first is that donald trump caused the filing of false Business Records. The second is that he did it with the intent to defraud the voters. The hird is that he did it with the intent to conceal an election law, conspiracy between him, Michael Cohen, and the national enquirer, david pecker, to conceal these election law violations. And you can see that the

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