We are going to walk down to the capital. Donald trump indicted all over again. This time for the same crime, using the same charges. Conspiring to defraud the united states. Conspiring to disenfranchise voters. And conspiring and attempting to obstruct an official proceeding. Tonight, what special counsel jack smith presented to a new grand jury and what it means for the prosecution of donald trump. I did everything right and they indicted me. Plus, with a fresh indictment for the republican nominee, the harrison the harris campaign has figured out how to run against trump. We will wait. And in georgia and beyond, what we are learning about attempts to subvert the election this time around, when all in starts now. Good evening. From miami i am katie phang, in for chris hayes. We are now just 70 days out from election day. 10 days away from mailin ballots being sent out in some states and the republican nominee for president was just indicted all over again for trying to steal the last election. Earlier today, special counsel jack smith unveiled a new superseding indictment of donald trump. A brandnew grand jury of americans impaneled to hear the case against the expresident for the first time and once again a grand jury of americans came to the conclusion that criminal charges should be brought. The charges against trump remain unaltered from when the doj first brought them a year ago this month, but the reason we have a new indictment is because special counsel jack smith's office clearly took efforts to comply with the broad new rules of presidential immunity that the supreme court invented in its ruling last month. Namely that the chief executive can effectively act with total impunity when it comes to so called official acts. For instance, by noting that trump's coconspirators were not government officials and that they were acting in, quote, a private capacity when they attempted to subvert a free and fair election. Smith's indictment also highlights the fact that trump's infamous january 6 rally at the ellipse in washington where he invited the mob to storm the capitol was, quote, a campaign speech at a privately funded , privately organized political rally, rather than an official act of the president of the united states. In other words, trump may have still been president at the time, but he was not acting as the president when he attempted a coup. Now this latest filing is obviously an attempt by smith to get ahead of any attempts by trump to have the case dismissed. Which actually happened in another case last month, when trump appointed judge eileen cannon dismissed the classified documents case against trump, a decision that smith's office is now appealing and of course, none of this would be necessary in the first place if chief justice john roberts and his maga majority on the supreme court did not invent a brand new standard for presidential immunity with no actual basis in constitutional law in the first place. In a clip of a new interview released today, justice ketanji brown jackson, who dissented in the immunity case, shared her concerns with that decision. Reporter: in your dissent you wrote that the court declared for the first time in history that the most powerful official in the united states can, under circumstances yet to be fully determined, become a law unto himself. It sounds like a warning. Well, that was my view of what the court determined. Reporter: you were concerned about broad immunity. I was concerned about a system that appeared to provide immunity for one individual under one set of circumstances. When we have a criminal justice system that had ordinarily treated everyone the same. To be absolutely clear, donald trump will not face trial in this d. C. Intervention election interference case or in any case before the election. He is running to get the entire thing thrown out should he win. Barbara mcquade served as united states attorney for the eastern district of michigan and is now a professor of law at the university of michigan. Glenn kirschner is a former fellow prussic enter fellow prosecutor. They both join me now. I cannot think of better folks to join me tonight to get us started. Did you expect a superseding indictment from jack smith at this time? no, i really didn't, katie, because what i thought he would do is pare down the indictment, filing an amended indictment to comply with the court order. Obviously the court to set the scheme relating to the justice department was official conduct and must come out. A prosecutor can remove language from an indictment without going back to the grand jury, but if you change allegations and put new material in you must go back to the grand jury and have them return that indictment. Here is you point out it really reframed the case. Even though not much is different. Instead the very first words of this are not donald trump was the 45th president of the united states, but it now says donald trump was a candidate for president in 2020 and it frames it in all of these instances as a candidate for office, as opposed to a president engaging in official conduct. Throughout the indictment you can see not only removal of some of these allegations about the justice department, but the addition of some language to reframe it. Another example, mike pence is described as the vice president, but also as the president of the senate, who has the power to certify the election. Those kinds of things require a superseding indictment. Now that i see it i can see why it was a good move, but i did not anticipate it. It is not just the deletion of people and maybe allegations. It is the beefing up of the allegations to make sure that it comports with what the united states supreme court was insisting had to happen after the horrific immunity ruling that we got just last month. It seems like longer than that, on july 1. Let's talk a little bit about process, first. No new arraignment for donald trump. He doesn't have to come back to court? there will be a new arraignment, but the reporting is jack smith said they are not going to demand the defendant donald trump's presence and the judge can accept the waiver of his presence at an arraignment. Donald trump has been arraigned a number of times and i guess he doesn't have to come to all of his arraignments. It makes sense that you will not bog down washington, d. C. Just to have donald trump brought in a federal court, arraigned in a fiveminute hearing and on his merry way. So i agree, katie, that you called the supreme court absolute immunity ruling horrific. Constitutional scholars of said the supreme court declared parts of the constitution unconstitutional, which is extraordinarily problematic and something that needs to be addressed. Like barb i was not expecting a superseding indictment, but here's the brilliance from my perspective. First of all, jack smith was proactive. He adjusted. He looked at the indictment and tried to pull out the offending language that might run afoul of the immunity ruling. Pared it down to 36 pages. What i was waiting for and thought would come as a result of hearings before judge chutkan. I was waiting to see if judge if jack smith believed in the wake of the absolute immunity ruling from the supreme court some of the charges would have to go away. This is considered opinion now as evidenced by the superseding indictment that all four charges remain viable, provable, and he is going to try to proceed to trial on all four charges and that is a good day for the prospect of accountability. You know, barb, in order to get to a jury of his peers, donald trump will have to survive a motion to dismiss. We've seen, let's be frank, right? we had an original version of the indictment. It survived a motion to dismiss by donald trump that was filed in front of judge chutkan. It is the same judge. The same indictment went to the d. C. Circuit of appeals and survived intact by trump there. It was only the supreme court that did damage, if any, to the indictment. What we are hearing from glenn, maybe there wasn't damage but one of the questions i've been asked is why maybe no new codefendants in this case? this is one of the only cases of indictments donald trump had where he was facing the charges all by his lonesome. In fact if there were to be a superseding indictment, i would've thought that would be the reason. We have unindicted co conspirators remaining in the indictment. One has been removed. Speculation is that person who is now out of the case is jeffrey clark who was a justice department official who came very close to being the acting attorney general. He is out because all of that conduct is no official conduct, but the others remain. Speculation being that there is rudy giuliani and john eastman and some of the others. Those five unindicted co conspirators are still there and i always speculated the reason they were not named as defendants was an effort to streamline the case, so perhaps it could go to trial before the election. Now that we know that is not at all possible, it is a little curious that they still have not included those and named them as defendants. I don't know the reason. Perhaps some are cooperating. Perhaps they want to keep their focus on donald trump. I don't know the reason, but the prior reason to streamline the case and get it on the calendar quickly no longer seems to be what's driving it. Glenn, let's talk next steps in the process. Many of us were waiting for an evidentiary hearing or hearings of sorts to be ordered by judge chutkan in advance of any type of motion. Can we reasonably anticipate donald trump filing a motion to dismiss this version, the superseding indictment, but can we also expect once that motion is denied that those evidentiary hearings could still take place? you know, they could. I think donald trump's motions to dismiss will come early and often and they will be reject did by the judge one after another. I do think we will see some kind of a hearing. Whether it is an evidentiary hearing where you have some of the republican witnesses who testified before the grand jury about donald trump's crimes. Whether they take the stand in the courtroom where it is done by proffer where they say judge here is what the evidence is and why we think it survives or trump's lawyers will say it does not survive the supreme court immunity ruling. One way or another we are going to see those hearings conducted and we are probably going to learn more about some of the evidence that was presented to the grand jury that led to regular citizens indicting donald trump, not only the first time, but a brandnew grand jury doing it again a second time and issuing this superseding indictment. Barbara mcquade and glenn kirschner, again, my thanks to both of you for getting us started tonight. Thanks, katie. Coming up, the new tactics of the democratic campaign. Successfully goading trump into a debate. That's next. I'll be honest. 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[giggles] why do you need me? [laughs sarcastically] but then we switched to tmobile 5g home internet. And now his attention is spent elsewhere. But i'm thinking of her the whole time. That's so much worse. Why is that thing in bed with you? this is where it gets the best signal from the cell tower! i've tried everywhere else in the house! there's always a new excuse. Well if we got xfinity you wouldn't have to mess around with the connection. Therapy's tough, huh? mmm. It's like a lot about me. [laughs] a home router should never be a home wrecker. Oo this is a good book title. With both with both parties conventions now behind us, we are officially in the final stretch before november 5. So in the midst of all of this, special counsel jack smith filed a new superseding indictment against donald trump for his attempts to steal the last election. It is unclear how this will impact the polls, but with only 70 days before the election, things remain remarkably close. The 538 polling average shows kamala harris leading donald trump by 3 1/2 points nationally. While many key battleground states are in a dead heat. Harris maintains a bit over a three point edge in michigan and wisconsin while georgia, nevada, north carolina and pennsylvania are effectively tied. Harris and walz will head to georgia tomorrow to kick off a bus tour culminating at a rally in savannah on thursday, well trump will hold a wisconsin rally on thursday and in pennsylvania on friday. In the meantime his vice presidential nominee, j. D. Vance, is scheduled to hold events of his own in those same states tomorrow. At least for now it really does feel like the harriswalz campaign has momentum on its side. That is because in large part democrats are taking the offensive in a way they have not in recent campaign cycles. Harris and walz are essentially trolling trump, like with this video calling out the former president for trying to back out of next month's schedule debate. Why not debate her? because they already know everything. Trump is not doing the debate. Right now i say why should i do a debate? i am leading in the polls and everybody knows me. When i looked at the hostility of that, i said why am i doing it? so for his part, donald trump now says that the debate scheduled september 10 is back on. But it is impossible to deny that trump has