Monitor this court case as well as to report on it. You know iran its going to los angeles you know it wasnt many years ago that julian assad was the fed it is a hero alongside the the guardian in the New York Times so why isnt the guardian the New York Times in that dock too because one time he was considered the greatest journalist alive now hes even given that privilege of that title and you know can you explain journalism just abandoning one of its own go ahead ron. Those are all the questions that weve been asking for quite some time now and i wish i had the answer for i mean i do yeah i mean i think it really speaks to just the failures of the industry especially in the United States i mean i remember that when he was exposing these war crimes and he was deemed a hero and rightfully so he exposed some essential information of war crimes going on around the world then all of the sudden he was deemed public enemy number one and hes not even a journalist anymore and you even see segments especially here in the United States i mean one particular one comes to mind off the top my head where it was on n. P. R. And Glenn Greenwald basically had to explain to the reporter what a journalist isnt isnt allowed to do you had to correct the introduction that the reporter gave him because the reporter was like well this is one of julian assad just friends and i was like i dont really know the guy i just understand this issue and im passionate about it because i am a journalist and it was basically Glenn Greenwald giving a crash course and the idea of freedom of the press someone who is supposedly a professional reporter so the the kind of radio silence in the United States has been nothing short of disturbing you know until and what did the problem is here isnt it and i think rons example is so perfect because agr. A deal what will what very little the American Public specifically knows about it is wrong. And they did i cant get over for all of this time is it its the the the authorities they want to focus enough now a son has got accepts ok who gave it to him because i dont really want that ok and for us and for the public it isnt just new story is it its what he exposed not room but what he exposed and this is what he has the authorities so angry war crimes how harass you my. A meddling in the media dictating narratives here he exposed all those things and telling the truth was his crime in their ons youre exactly right there were some pretty incredible moments in Court Last Week when Clive Stafford smith and attorney took the stand and he discussed the ways in which wiki leaks publications helped him and his own work as an attorney and how wiki leaks publications have led to positive social and political change in our world he cited his defense of want time of a prisoner as that he is wiki leaks documents to show evidence of torture and wiki leaks documents have also helped aid in the passing of legislation to and drone strikes in pakistan and the prosecution i could tell you was not happy and this is being discussed in a court of law unfortunately these are issues that are not discussed in our Mainstream Media and our Corporate Media and that is why join us on chose to create wiki leaks in the 1st place if there is absolutely right with him to join us on this wouldnt be necessary or weak the likes of journalists have been doing their job to stop no kidding no kidding well in something i want to add to something that you said peter whether theyre so concerned with where and how he got the information and i just want to add real quick the reason that is is because they are desperately trying to. Make this claim which again there is no evidence of this by the way theyre really trying to make this claim that he helped hack something because for anyone who is not aware the way the law works in particular in the United States but i think lucy wants to send her love to julians cat by the way my cat was decenter about but but the way it works is that if you receive information like as a journalist or a publisher if you were sieved information and you publish it that is no crime you can even say hey this is good to the person who gave it to you hey this is good stuff can you get me some more of this that is also not a crime but lets say that person is hacking hacking illegally and you help them well thats thats considered a crime so they desperately are trying to make this case that juliana songe helped Chelsea Manning theres no evidence of that they tortured Chelsea Manning to try to get her to say that that happened she still has and so thats kind of where theyre at you know i think you know here i think that one point he was making her on to get a passport so he could shoot her video games i mean not thats high risk National Security very very own game all right yet taylor that says the whole point here is that. Journalists it is journalists are fine as long as you go about what our wants you to say and thats what you see on cable t. V. 247 actually thats how you get on t. V. Is by echoing the way the the talking points of the deep state and obviously your employer which wants to be in good stead with the deep state i mean you know it you know when James Clapper says something i guess n. B. C. Or Something Like that you know you you rest assured that he is in the know and hes telling his employer so he can have this circular game or he leaks it and then they report it and he can perms it ok and we can leaks and Julian Assange short circuited all of that another reason why they hate. Yes exactly i mean this is the 1st time that the u. S. Espionage act of 1917 again legislation that was passed very long time ago during world war one is being used against a journalist and a publisher and in the courts the defense is not permitted to use a Public Interest defense in these types of cases and all the prosecution has to prove is that the publications could have potentially lead to someone being harmed or harm being caused just the possibility of that which is very easy to do if you think about it so its very much in favor of the prosecution here and this case also really violates the 1st amendment we are saying that the 1st amendment does not apply to a Foreign National apparently that has any courts interpretation and many do not agree with that assessment because the u. S. As the in os x. Does apply to a Foreign National it makes absolutely no sense and also to go back to the point of wiki leaks publications really helping initiate positive change it was brought up in court as well that through the afghan and iraq war logs it really exposed how many civilians were dying overseas and it really deterred support for the war in the United States which is perhaps one of the reasons why former president barack obama chose not to go ahead with the prosecution yet this Current Administration is going ahead with the prosecution which that of course does speak to the political nature of this case and that this is a example of trumps want journalism i think its the establishment you know in a very weird way very weird if you like its been floated that he was thinking about some kind of partner clemency and that would include. And you know what i think its quite might do it because you know why its a popular issue its a popular issue the what this department of justice is doing is oh. Popular and its something that most people feel its in just deep inside theres something wrong with this year because ron this is an example Julian Assange is an example and thats what they want to say a Chilling Effect through the entire profession i would say even destroying the profession and pretty much destroyed anyway go ahead ron. Yeah i mean i i dont i dont share your enthusiasm that trump might pardon anybody because i think medical maybe they dont know i understand i understand but but i would just say you know i dont really have any confidence in that happening simply because the people who hes surrounded by would never want him to do anything like that and hes listening to the people hes surrounded by so so i and i and fortunately dont see anything like that happening. And i want to just he back on something taylor said real quick you know this whole idea that ok hes not an american citizen which hes my julius on is not an american citizen this whole idea that were going to impose the espionage act on him which you know was passed in 1917 because a world war one doesnt really have any relevance in our day and age right now were going to impose that on him but of course the freedom of speech laws dont apply to him because hes not an american citizen theres a phrase for that that we all know thats a very colloquial thing but its basically what this is thats called having your cake and eating it too and thats what the prosecution is trying to do here they are trying to say everything. So that they just have the easiest path necessary and there is no way for a number of reasons that he would get a fair trial here in the United States if you were ever to come here to the United States because theyd be able to do everything behind closed doors. Ok well that were rapidly running out of time this part of the program here and in the next part i want to talk about the issue of freedom of speech of the 1st men because i think you can sure interpret it in many many ways and i want to talk about the future of journalism so stay with us were going to go to a short break and when we come back anyone discussion on Julian Assange. The world is driven by. The dares thinks. We dare to ask. That the volatility sneer those who really can show. They can just be suitably. Blessed with that. So. No numbers to play in a bowl episodes didnt go to see you were the. Slither in your force where you could being in my stuff missed it not thoughts about spirit i pity do i was more than 6 put him into and in no. State via google will. Show still stressless can assure him once. Its a. Sort of. Kick your butt is. Ringback moot. Welcome back to crossfire where are all Things Considered on people bill to remind you were discussing the us. Ok lets go back to london feeling you were talking about it being the 1st amendment here but this is an extradition treaty and i do know looking at the people that are covering this is that they are grappling with a matter how american law meets british law because its a treaty that both sides have to agree with so i think its a strike against you this is a doesnt apply to join us under because theyre trying to apply american last year and i think its quite disturbing how the british legal system is bending over backwards to accommodate the american position but during this prosecution go ahead. Yes exactly it seems as if the government has no sovereignty essentially the judge manesar bracer in this case has consistently ruled in favor of the prosecution and the u. S. Government and did not even grants Julian Assange bail a couple months ago 5 when it was definitely warranted because he is at an increased risk of contracting because he has a chronic lung condition and hes a sentient being held in prison on remand without charge he already served his time for minor bail violation where he was given a very lengthy sentence for that minor violation but to go back to freedom of the press issues in the 1st amendment trevor tim who is the founder of freedom of the press foundation and an attorney as well he took the stand and had a very powerful testimony where he spoke about the serious implications this case has he addressed the issue of the espionage act and how its being used very broadly to punish very standard journalistic activity journalists all over the world. And its very very serious that the u. S. Government is seeking to criminalize this activity things like source protection which is a journalists obligation to protect their sources as well as publishing leaks which is a big part of journalism history as well. You know ron what is the future of the profession here because it seems to me that you know a lot of people that are involved in journalism are activists and theyre activists for a certain person political ideology and and in the end to do have a impact you need access and so if you just can sub youll get more and more access if you dont question too much then you know youll be considered a favor ok and those journalists will get preferential leaks too to pursue a political agenda i mean there seems to be if i dont think were going to ever have a journalist thats going to. Expose all gray began or the meal i massacre thats in our past because no one has courage and the only person that does has courage is on trial in london go ahead well you know i used to say the media structure in the United States is toxic i have since tweak that where i say we dont have a media structure in the United States and thats very toxic and thats the truth we really dont we just have a corporate giveaway where institutions who have no business being in news and information dictate our news and information we have m. S. N. B. C. Which is owned by comcast c. N. N. Which is owned by time warner and has no business being in news just soaker admits to that and fox news was just an extension a Ripper Murdoch so we dont really have a media structure in the United States now a reason for hope is there is a and of independent journalists in the United States and that list is growing by the day and theyre doing some amazing work and theyre boots on the ground all over the country and then all over the world i mean tailors in london right now so the optimist in me says eventually well see some types of policy. That aid a healthy new structure Something Like other countries have i mean norway for instance comes to my mind 1st but i think thats going to take a lot of time and i think its only its not going to happen until you know the grassroots becomes so powerful that it really cannot be ignored anymore and it becomes kind of kind of the main game in town but thats slowly but surely happening i mean especially amidst younger generations that are turning away from cable news more and more in droves and i mean youre absolutely right because cable news will never give you the context of a story so its very hard to comprehend its meaning and unfortunately part of my job is the watch a lot of cable t. V. And no i want to remember you pulled the people that report on it i dont really know what theyre talking about and then the you how the presenters popping hits they really dont know what theyre talking about because everything is very skewed all the time its im always not like oh why didnt you mention this or like you had 60 minutes they made a a statement on yemen but they never mentioned that the u. S. Is involved yeah you just never met never mentioned in here just a minor detail just a minor detail that i dont how they just dismissed the editing room somehow i dont feel im going to ask you very depressing questions of brace yourself here. And its already quite depressing i cant help but think that theyre just running the clock out and joined us on his health because we have this procedure theyll be an appeal it could eventually end up in the Supreme Court and that is before the extradition is approved i mean i hate to say it but if you images ive seen of him hes in very bad health and hes getting no from what i understand any real credible medical assistance and the conditions that hes kept in obviously is not a person in or help me im sorry is that crossed your mind im sorry to have this dark but what do you think its very important we did talk about showing us. Just house that has been completely neglected now shortly after his arrest last year the un special rapporteur on torture visited prison along with 2 other independent medical professionals each of them assessed a songe and they did this separately each of them separately came to the same conclusion that he has been subjected to torture while he was in the Ecuadorian Embassy for 7 years this is very very serious because the u. K. Government has not properly addressed this they are required to conduct an independent investigation into the matter they have not. Stated that he did the u. K. Government the u. S. Government sweden and ecuador who are all complicit and the psychological torture and none of these countries have appropriately responded theyre going to be very long term effects of this isolation and its important to remember that. Has contributed so much to our world through wiki leaks and wiki leaks has but hes also a human being he is also a son he has a mother and a father he has a fiance and 2 Young Children and we have to look at him as a human being as well who is being treated and calling way and the people behind his prosecution and persecution specifically members of the 5 agency should be hanging their heads in shame over how they have allowed this to happen and keep this going on yeah. Empire. Ok and everything that caleb just said there they dont care about they said they just simply dont care about i think one of the. 2 days is that the individuals or groups that have supplied julie design. Information that were laid of was later put on line we would call them for this whistleblower but now we have a new form of a whistleblower and. That is. Aber of power ok and well if you look at it particularly under the trumpet ministration with. Ukraine gate and this most recent one here i am all for whistleblowers here but now theyre being redefined ok in a way that. Undermines and degrades what a real whistleblower should be we should praise them ok but now with this definition bein