Quick me Stephen Stanko China's rise to economic superpower status as an unaltered brought with it I'm opening up of politics or culture far from it the Communist Party has intensified its efforts to suppress dissent of all kinds so it is that my guest today China's most internationally famous artist Ai Wei Wei now lives in the u.k. Not Beijing he's a refugee and a migrant of sorts so how has that affected his creative output my artists like a vehicle but to my activism has led to the gas or they you so. You they cannot move who is sell to one another it's not possible that's I wait on hold talk after the New Years. This is the b.b.c. News Hello I'm Gareth Barlow in his State of the Union address to the u.s. Congress President Trump has spoken of what he considers his greatest achievements after 3 years in office referring to what he called the great American comeback he said the economy was throwing and his actions have made America respected again around the world from the instant I took office I moved rapidly to revive the u.s. Economy slashing a record number of job killing regulations enacting historic and record setting tax cuts and fighting for fair and we separate all trade agreements. With. Our agenda is relentlessly pro worker pro-family pro growth and most of all pro American was a president's speech was punctuated with the aunt who gestures recognizing his guest Venezuela's self-proclaimed president when go I don't own a ring a military veteran and awarding a private school scholarship to go from Philadelphia Democratic congress women wearing white declined to stand for the repeated evasions some heckled him as he extolled his own health care policy as Mr Trump concluded the House speaker Nancy Pelosi ripped her copy of his speech in her mouth Madeline dean of Democratic politician from Pennsylvania gave this response to Mr Trump's speech that was filled with the exact opposite of what this president has spent 3 years doing he's been tearing down our relationships with minorities he's been tearing down regulations that will protect our climate has been tearing down our educational system the Democratic Party in the u.s. State of Iowa has reported post results in the state caucus showing the candidate Peter Blute ahead in terms of delegate count closely followed by Bernie Sanders Peter Bowditch a former mayor. And openly gay candidate described the result as a victory for his campaign was it your idea that we could have a message the same as conduct in Burma in rural and suburban communities then we should reach out to Democrats and independents and even to some future for Republicans ready to bring change to. The former vice president Joe Biden is in 4th place the caucus represents the 1st leg of the race to choose a Democratic candidate for November's presidential election the latest figures from China show another large increase in the number of people infected with a new coronavirus in the past 24 hours cases on the mainland leapt from 1000 and a half 1000 to more than 24300 the number of people have died from the disease has risen to 490 cases so far you're listening to the latest world news from the b.b.c. a Judge in Argentina has ordered a criminal investigation into 6 members of the country's hate Naval High Command over the disappearance of a submarine the same one in 2017 with $44.00 crew on board the judge accused the man a failing to fill their official g.t.s. The wreckage of the sand when was found after a yearlong search 500 kilometers of the cased Paraguay's government says it believes most of the prisoners who escaped last month from a jail housing members of Brazil's violent p.c.c. Gang are still in the country the minister of interior Cletus Acevedo said security forces are so far recounted 11 of the $75.00 prisoners the Chinese technology firm Holloway has said it will set up manufacturing bases in Europe to make components for the 5 g. Networks that will build them and Lissie building factories in Europe will help persuade e.u. Countries not to take the tough measures against Huawei which the United States has which regards it as a threat to national security. New research has suggested that the vocal patterns of penguins follow the same general principles as human language the study was led by 2 French universities and was published in the journal Biology Letters The b.b.c. Has been lowing has more details. That's the call of the African or black footed penguin It was the focus of this research examining 28 adults in 3 different colonies in captivity in zoos in Italy the scientists listened to what are known as their ecstatic display songs recording them for analysis for the 1st time they found that laws governing information compression in speech could be observed in animals other than primates as with human language the words used most often by the Penguins were the shortest the longest words were composed of additional But briefer syllables from the talking penguins and for me that's the latest b.b.c. Knees. Welcome to hold talk on the b.b.c. World Service with me Stephen Stanko my guest today is China's most internationally famous artist Ai Wei Wei now it is early sixty's he has a body of work which incorporates sculpture film documentary installation aka take photography a prolific and eclectic output united by a determination to question authority provoke difficult questions and give voice to the forceless particularly in his native China oddly a surprise them that he consistently ran into trouble with the Chinese Communist Party as his fame spread in 2011 he was charged with financial crimes and was imprisoned for almost 3 months he has since left China and offer a brief residence in Berlin he and his family are now based in the u.k. Aid in recent is his creative output has been profoundly affected by his experiences in his words on high end political refugee So how does this Chinese artist expressed his feelings about his homeland now well I way way joins me welcome to our talk. Thank you has living in exile changed you think as an artist. I think he's actually I am the same now I am most born as I growl my father was I was out of the world the year I was born so he was sent by remote area and now there were people being put in this education camps but the v.a. Or the artist the 1958 but I guess this is different because you are now also very far from your homeland and so much of your artistic output in China was sort of pushing at the edges over a repressive system asking questions over challenging it and now you're no longer in it do you think the outside world particularly the Western world in which you now have come to terms with what China represents perhaps even the threat it represents. I think the West economically benefited by such a huge market and there cream fall environment even as dictatorship but it still produces. A tear on the labor and also all the possibilities the West cannot always think gradually realized become the top top. Economic force and the want to come visit is the political ideology still is the state. Polled wholly clearly announce they're not follow international standard the common values of walking to you like the democratic system for you dependent prize all freedom of speech and all those need pendent the traditional system which causes a great. Heading for the West she 25 years ago when perhaps the economic engagement with China really took off the argument was that the more we engage we build these trade relationships we we develop our ties to China and of course see China grow the more we will see China adopt our systems our mindset in terms of values freedoms democracy are you now conclusively sure that ain't gonna happen for a very beginning while people assume try and the will become a more liberal and democratic society I think is just. Call wishful thinking and this kind of society like. Clear set Perry and dictatorship kind of lust quite long I made last longer than the sec so I never change the political condition and become much par for and have much stronger young friends in many ways the West cannot even compete to face but I would never change you I think in the last few months I've been heavily involved in filming the protests in Hong Kong the pro democracy protests you can't do it yourself of course but when you look at what is happening in Hong Kong and the reaction all of the u.k. The United States other Western powers do you feel the people of Hong Kong who are on the streets are being let down. I don't think the young people being hung Kong was such a beautiful Han demonstration. Which weaving in the flak saw for the Western freedom and democracy and that completely be led by the Western nations because they would send could that's a problem in the Us President Trump already clearly tell me stay he will not interfere. And to use that as a Bogen to get better treat treating deals which I think it's very shortsighted it's not an internal problem concomitant flak to the west and ideology in the West and should not talk not just lost those. Very important battles but interestingly on one particular issue the Americans have made a stand and that is the question of why wary and extremely successful telecoms in China which is at the forefront of developed developing 5 g. Communications technology the Americans have decided they want nothing to do with it yet in the United Kingdom the government has just made a decision in a limited form to allow hallway to be one of the developers of 5 g. Technology here in the u.k. As somebody with very strong opinions about the relations between the West and China what do you think of the U.K.'s decision I think your case decision as shortsighted I think u.k. Should the exam come to you from the Huawei is not a normal company it's a state run media treat type of a company which kind of a potential danger to say to you western security u.k. So pretty Also I think in this case u.s. Is completely right to cut off that kind of connection and don't ask us I like to also do so but far away says look just treat us as a tech company because that's what we are and this idea that we are given instructions by the Beijing government is completely false trust us they say are you saying that there can be no trust was so ever as one British m.p. Who criticised the u.k. Deal put it It's like inviting the forks into the henhouse. That Fred I think is fair I think of that and the lies in if you look at the history of try and I don't know want to be trusted you know I they have padding in the higher you seem very nice history even come your friends of course in the big every sincerest the party's interests in the area buddy have to receive hands. On their interest with the party so how far do you take this view of yours of Beijing for example the other day we had the vice president of the United States light depends described the Chinese Communist Party as the greatest threat to the interests of the United States in the world today I think. He is absolutely absolutely correct in that sense if you talk. To the western civilization this party has a clear vision ability and very well organized and though they were never a compromise that is the problem I dare say there will be many Chinese people watching this who will say I way way has fundamentally betrayed our country here. In his comfortable exile condemning his own country I'm not condemning my country I come to come this the party you know the people I know was in this so-called country and the Communist Party totally dominated or we. Did tell us of a and do your life and the popular performance talking of you these days of course you're still your own autistic output is still pretty prolific but a lot of your time is spent campaigning as a now. This particular human rights activist and I was very struck by something you wrote in The New York Times recently about events in China which you say of talent amount to a sort of culture side of whole peoples and you were particularly concerned about the fate of the we give people the Muslim we get people in a part of the country that you know well because you've told me your family was sent into exile in Shin Jack and this would culture side what do you mean by it I think clearly a strategy by. Control control ourselves of the nation twined to. Make. Way where people or bad hands disappear by. Sacrificing their culture and there's irritated language again the Chinese government and I spoke recently to the Chinese ambassador in London he says this is nothing but distortions and lies and I just wonder whether you ever poor those to consider the achievements of the Chinese Communist Party there are hundreds of millions of Chinese people to date in your country who are living better lives materially much better lives because of the strategy and policy pursued by this Communist Party that you portray as an enemy of the people my father as maybe the most important the communist OJT he is the number one had take. Point he is friends of cease father. Close friend and I think this part he meant 10 times. And the sacrifice the early ideology and the completely be treated. I do ideology and want to I'm saying is true I'm not I'm not to try it now and I trains people but to tell the truth says the best way to help us and solid. Let me turn now to your life out of China when you 1st went into exile you went to Berlin and had a studio in Berlin I think you found life difficult in Germany and of course in the end you chose to leave and to come to the United Kingdom but you left with some controversy because you appeared to feel that in Germany you were not truly welcome but Germany was not an open tolerant society and there was one famous incident in a casino in Berlin where you got into an altar creation with a member all this stuff and ultimately during a an argument you accused him of having a Nazi how to choose what was happening there it seems like you were struggling to fit it into what we regard as progressive liberal Western society Well I think that you lotion. And the means to a man is not the progress of their bro society and they if you see a society. Just try to imagine not too long goal millions of people being sacrificed because certain kind also Terry and the idea and this is basically cold turkey still have a strong inference from this kind also terrain state surely the lesson of Germany over the last 6070 years is that it is no extraordinary ability to leave the past behind Yes I can see the effort but I also can see this is such a hiden structure in their political behavior and acquitted behaviors which very easily you can see the era. Of this kind cinephile be awful for nervous. For ideas or different conduct discussions on liberal sinking and Vernon I will see this summer to see if they are very narrow minded but either way it seems that you were 1st rate too if I may say so by the liberalism itself because at one point when you were discussing the way Germany refuses to take a stand on China for the reasons we've discussed about the deep economic ties investments in China and you said I don't trust all these liberals 'd even if they call me a liberal the truth is these liberals are even capable of taking meaningful actions they're just talking so you don't seem to fit it clearly you don't fit in China but I'm wondering whether you really feel that Western Europe are the 2 I think that's the exact quote one sad and I may be conservative liberal or are liberal conservative I think of many liberals while debate talk about today failed you can see in the political couple call it political situation test become a talking has there has no ground they don't make Angus and. Happen you know it's not that they cannot really a fight. Or a far right or is kind of a notion so I think. It takes a great struggle and defense to become a true liberal interesting blood lead then let's take one issue which is really concerned you as an artist over the last few years particularly as you've lived in Europe and that is migration and the challenge for Europe of what to do about the hundreds and hundreds 'd of thousands of people many of them suffering terribly in their home countries who want to make it to security and perhaps hopefully to prosperity in Europe you made a film human flu and. 2017 which was an extraordinary visual expression of these flows of people you followed it up with another one rest which focused on individuals caught in this migration trap. The overall impression was that you think Europe has failed. Totally I think Europe has been very shortsighted and selfish and has been very lazy and. Doesn't bear the responsibility and I think this is a good one would let us be honest with us is their responsibility I think their responsibility is to seize a world wide and one location in all and you were of human rights or human dignity has been violated the West should stand up to protect it of course this difficult situation is complicated that's why Europe should be united should be you know to be as a unity to protect its own values you sometimes take it too far I'm thinking about that photograph your setup of yourself in a pose which mirrored that of the 5th the young boy a lot of courage the migrant who was washed up dead on a beach in Greece and you recreated that image using your own body some found that exploitative tasteless many people who want to ponder the way George walk away always said to me in this b.b.c. Building while walking with says you know so-called liberals and just the one who's telling the story most people would not like to hear about in the I'm so identified the bases kind the idea. Besides Kirti his browser that 50 meters away nobody take the full auto. And there's this many solidness under the ocean on the bottom of the ocean and the whole nobody cares I don't people it's kind. Of sentiment I want to tell the troops right now but there is an element of ego in that putting your so you know comparing you're a. Migrant to that I was even last fall's I was in desperate situation I want to settle myself in the same position you know to understand what he's like and I get to do that and one journalist request is not that it's not even issued by me I'm interested by that reference you just made to George 'd Orwell I just wonder whether as I talked earlier 'd about the balance between your activism and your art. Do you feel that you fundamentally changed that activism is now more important to you than creating new artistic output my artists like a vehicle but to my activism it's like. The gas or they you know if you feel so. They cannot move without one another it's not possible going back to our earlier conversations about exile feelings of China it is ultimately still your homeland and it is where your family your mother live will you go back. Under the current political circumstance I would never go back. And you know I don't. I come functions here is not possible and. I'm not takes a sting in that society my name cannot be mentioned So why go back to just give extract job to the political secret he your own you know. But I think you've just said that under the current circumstances with this government I cannot go bag does raise one fundamental question do you think in your lifetime that the Communist Party of China will find its grip on power loosened but China will fundamentally change I is serious question I don't come to the party I want to have this kind of conscience or or intention to make a change that means I will never be able to go back and just in terms of the country and the feelings you have I just ask you a final question about something that's happening in your home country right now which we're all talking about the spread of this coronavirus you made a distinction between the government and the people when you read about the thousands of new cases about the degree of pan