there, elaina, that admiral kirby -- he had two alternatives. either pompeo is not connected to the president, you know, and the state department doesn't really speak for the president, or pompeo is connected to the president, and they're kind of a cabal, and the career people in the state department, all of that is just cut out. you know, it's pompeo and trump and giuliani out there and others just kind of doing their own foreign policy. >> well, the reality is that that's why volker's testimony ultimately will be quite interesting because i think the state department's role in giuliani's communications with ukrainian officials is still, you know, pretty murky in terms of what we do know. giuliani has put out text messages showing that volker was, you know, a key conduit between him and ukrainian leaders. so it will be incumbent upon volker to sort of explain was the state department trying to contain the damage as the whistle-blower alleges of giuliani's communications, or