president told at least three people, go talk to rudy. after that, rudy became the driving force behind the whole effort to cut this deal. and we also know that the omb, when they said, we're putting a hold -- the white house called omb and said we're putting a hold on the money, where did that come from? it came from the president. so when they say -- when the president said talked to rudy, there's one guy who is telling rudy what to do, and that's the president. there's just no doubt about it. we don't have to speculate. that's how this system works. >> right. >> rudy wouldn't be out there and wouldn't be clothed with all of this authority unless people thought he was speaking for the president. that's why it's so essential to have rudy giuliani testify. right now he's under a subpoena. he's thumbing his nose at the investigators. the investigators need to crack down on that. he's so central. 500 times he's mentioned in this. by the way, the defense that lindsey graham offered today, they're too competent to do this. >> it's ridiculous.