bidens and ukraine or just investigations with his ambassador to the eu isn't just the potentially incriminating things that may have been said. again, we don't know exactly what was said to gordon sondland, we'll hear it next week. it is also the manner in which the phone call occurred. the phone call between the president of the united states and a top diplomat didn't occur in a secure setting, it was in the open in a restaurant in a country teeming with russian intelligence and could potentially be heard by anyone around. my next guest calls the security ramifications inside. larry pfiffer served as chief of staff to cia director michael hayden. larry, thanks for being with us. when you first heard that gordon sondland, ambassador to the eu, had a phone conversation with the president apparently on a cell phone at a restaurant in ukraine, were you surprised? >> yes and no. i mean you saw my reaction. i described it as insane to a certain extent. >> insane, because why?