we called it wrong, we should get it. >> yeah, you know, that's the hardest part. people bring up they got this wrong, what about this, what about this? some people you're never going to persuade. i'm not a very patient person. i had to learn patience. trying to lovingly walk people through. not to get philosophical. we talk about you've got your truth, i've got mine. >> i hate that using that phrase, speaking your truth. there is a thing that -- >> i do i think. it requires us to be more relational than we've ever had to be at a time when we're more divided, tribally, loyally. trying to break through and talk them through it. it takes time but it works if you are willing to lovingly walk through it with them. >> it seems like all of the studies and common sense, if you try to shame people, it doesn't work. >> right. yeah. you've got to be relational.