everything we do internationally, someone refers back to the vietnam experience. >> tao: mm-hmm. >> anthony: you know? "let's not do that again." or -- >> tao: "let's not repeat vietnam." >> anthony: but i find it interesting that the people who had, perhaps, the most painful experience were among the first to reach out. i think the john mccain story is particularly interesting because here's a guy who had an atrocious experience here in prison and yet he has been among the most vocal supporters of normalizing relations. >> tao: it took several trips to vietnam. and so he could see vietnam in a different light. it's no longer a war. it's a country with people. >> anthony: have you been out with returning veterans from -- >> tao: oh, yes. all the time. >> anthony: did they often want to go to the area that they served? >> tao: oh, yes. >> anthony: did they often even meet with the people they fought? >> tao: yes. >> anthony: b-52 pilots come to