we've never been very good at that. we did it for a bit, but most people don't want to do it. now is the time when we all must do that seriously and get vaccinated. that's the last thing. >> most importantly at this moment. south africa sounded the alarm early in sharing this information. the way the president is talking about it is that they're being punished for the good work they did. do you agree? do you think that's what this -- that's what the effect of these travel bans is, is that south africa is being punished? >> south africa should get a gold medal for the quality of it science and the quality of its transparency. as i said, we have not seen nearly enough of that, transparency, particularly. indeed, to then make south africa feel that doing all the right things leads to a very bad outcome is not good, not just bald for south africa, it's bald for the world. >> how so? >> well, other countries will