great as a witness in the well of the senate. so a little surprising that he's really digging in here and saying he'd even defy a senate subpoena. kate. >> it is fascinating. good to see you, lauren. thank you. out front with me now, "washington post" congressional report error and patrick heely, "new york times" politics editor. good to see you guys again. biden has taken this position before. he's said this but i think this is the first time he's kind of made this declaration once again since the president was impeached by the house. is this going to stop republicans for asking for his testimony? what does this -- what does this add to where this debate land -- stands right now? >> it adds some drama to where the debate stands right now. but remember, we still had the top senate -- top republican senator saying he didn't want to get into the wading pool of all the witnesses to begin with. so we have a little bit of tension within the gop as to whether you get into the witness fight at all. and if so, then, yes, the president wants to see hunter biden and the whistle-blower potentially that brings in joe biden, too. but remember, fundamentally speaking, you've got the leaders