never gave up on and a dozen men with horror stories of their own. here to tell us what happened to them here on a special edition of "larry king live." good evening. hilary swank, the actress who is a two-time academy award winner, plays betty ann waters in "conviction." the real betty ann waters is -- here also. she went to law school to get her brother out of prison. sam rockwell plays kenneth waters, betty ann's brother who spent 18 years behind bars for a crime he didn't commit. and tony goldwyn who directed "conviction." this terrific movie, it opens october 15. such stories aren't just the subject of movies. joining us here in los angeles and in dallas, are 12 men all wrongfully convicted of crimes, jailed and ultimately freed. the dallas county district attorney who plays the central role in their new lives is with us too, and they'll be watching along with you. we'll hear some of their stories a little later in the hour. let's first take a look at a scene from "conviction." >> this is what i'm going to do, don't laugh, all right? i'm going to stop by trying to get my mba after i take the stupid ged test, and if i can get that far, there's no guarantee i'll even get in, i'll apply to law school. but it's going to take a long time, a really long time and i might be 80 years old before i finally become a lawyer and even then i still don't know if i can finance it. but you have to promise me you just have to, that you'll never try to kill yourself again, because if you do -- just don't. >> i cannot understate how good this movie is, it is a great film. betty ann, what was it like to see yourself played by her? >> surreal. >> first of all, i can't even believe that i got to have her play me. but it was really surreal. i felt bad that she had to actually learn to talk like me and do some of the things i do but she did a fabulous job. >> you didn't have even a high school diploma, right? >> i did have a ged. >> larry: you went to law school and became a lawyer just to get your brother freed? >> yes. >> larry: i what was it like to play her? >> i don't know of betty ann's story before the script was sent to me. i didn't hear about it on the news or anything. but it was a great incredible honor to play this woman who's my real life hero. >> there's no way to underplay this. it's an incredible film. sam, when you got the script, and you got to play this brother, a conflicted character, did you love it right away? >> i did. i chased after it. i thought it was an amazing script and a great part. i was really excited. >> larry: but you had to play someone who was not a nice guy. a guy who pretty much did this as a viewer. >> he's got a temper. and maybe misunderstood. >> larry: no kidding? >> but he's basically a good guy. >> larry: inside, way inside. >> that's right. >> larry: how did you get to direct it, tony? >> we have been working on this for nine years. >> larry: nine years? >> nine years ago my wife saw a piece on "60 minutes" right after betty ann succeeded in getting him out of prison. she was screaming at me to watch the piece. i missed the segment and she told me the story and i was so moved by it and i thought to myself, this woman spent 18 and a half years on an act of faith in another human being, in her brother. and i wanted to know about that. i just was so affected by that and i thought what if he did it, what if either she was wrong or if she was never successful, would that have invalidated her faith? and the answer for me was no because just the fact of having that much love and faith for another person and as some of our other guests tonight said to me, just one person believing in you is enough to sustain you through being in prison. >> larry: what did you make of her, hillary, this extraordinary lady? >> i felt she was selfless of, she was full of grace, the determination and drive and belief and ultimately like tony said love that she had for this other human being, the selfless act of giving, really her life is astonishing and, you know, we have all said it to betty and betty ann says what? i didn't do anything that anyone wouldn't do. and yes, you did. most people wouldn't do this. >> larry: what kept you believing? >> my brother kenny had more faith in me than anybody ever had. >> larry: but he erupted a lot, he lost confidence a lot. >> he never lost confidence in me. >> larry: not you, but in getting out. >> you know, once that we made that promise that i would go to law school, kenny really believed that i would get him out. i didn't really believe i could get him out or find a way, but he did, he did believe it. >> larry: was it tough to play? >> yeah, it was, it was, but it was fun, it was good, hard work and because of tony and hillary, i felt like i was able to step up to the plate. >> larry: did you talk to betty ann about what her brother was like? >> yeah, absolutely. we spent a whole weekend, the three of us with betty ann and her relatives and told stories about kenny and betty ann when they were kids. >> lots of great stories. >> it was a lot of fun, actually, yeah. >> larry: you know, when you see this film as it evolves, authorities had every right to think he did it. don't you think? early on? >> you know, i took a certain dramatic license here, kenny was no boy scout, there's no doubt about that. and, you know, the thing that's amazing about kenny and about sam's performance. there was kind of like this duality. in one sense, everyone adored kenny and he was the life of the party and was the most kind, generous person, but he could turn in an instant and had a very violent temper. and he attracted trouble, he definitely did. but i in the movie, the authorities, the facts are that the authorities did not have the right to do it. there was a lot wrong with their case, and as you find out in the movies, there was a lot of abuse involved. >> larry: his temper was doing him in, though, wasn't it? >> he had a temper but he was not an aggressor. when somebody confronted him he didn't know how to handle it. so that's where his temper came from. but he's not the type of person who would break into a home. a and kill them. he wouldn't break into a person's home and kill them. it was always somebody attacking him. >> larry: did he ever have a motive? >> no, he didn't have a motive. >> larry: but he was involved with the woman? >> no. she was just a neighbor. he had no involvement in this whatsoever. we grew up knowing her. she's never said one bad thing about my family, my brother, anybody. >> one thing i think as sam says in the movie, as from the start, he's been, you know, he's been painted with that brush. so if people went, oh, he's a bad guy, he's been busted, he's been in prison, and a lot of times in our society because of someone's past or the way we perceive them, we like to generalize. so that happened to be kenny. >> larry: tony will be coming back with us later. the man who has helped free wrongfully convicted man from prison was an american hero will join us next. >> it's the blood. this is the key. >> what? >> there was so much blood. lou, i'm going do get kenny out. there were no dna tests then. they only knew the murderer was type o and so kenny. but now if we can dna test the murderer's blood and kenny is innocent. just like in a rape case. >> how do you know the blood evidence still exists? >> because we're going to find it. and barry scheck is going to help. >> oh, i see, barry scheck. >> he's the innocence project in new york. >> and you're going to call him up and he's going to take your case? >> yes. >> we're back with the stars of "conviction." joining us is barry scheck. what do you recollect about this case, barry? >> this was unforgettable. meeting betty ann and her best friend from law school, it was just extraordinary. we had, as people will see in the movie, it's not just getting dna tests on the blood, that wasn't enough. we had to go out and we had to interview the witnesses, we had to reinvestigate the whole case. >> larry: did you take it right away off just her visit? how do you choose what you take? >> well, our standard is very simple. if a dna test can prove you innocent at the innocence project in new york, we'll take your case. there are now 50 other innocence projects in the united states. not all of them rely just on dna, we do. that's a very simple standard. if dna proves you innocent, we'll take your case. >> larry: simple as that? >> simple as that. >> larry: how about all the times there was no dna? >> that's a key problem, because only 10% of dna cases have any biological evidence where you can do a test and find out if one is guilt or innocence much less identify a perpetrator. there's bad confessions, bad forensic science, jailhouse snitch, police or prosecutors who cross the line or worst of all, a bad defense lawyer, somebody who doesn't have the resources or the ability to make a defense. these are the causes of wrongful convictions and we know what to do about them and we know if we solve them, we're going to benefit the whole system. >> larry: how many people you got now? >> there's been 260 post conviction dna exonerations. hour project has not been the principal in all of them, but about two-thirds. >> larry: 260, all men? >> well, all men. there are some women who got out because they were like co-defendants in the case. >> larry: and these were men who were all in jail for killing someone? >> well, a lot of them are sexual assaults. 17 people were on death row, i think about 40 of them or so were murders like kenny, if there had been a death penalty in massachusetts. >> larry: what did you think of the movie? >> this movie took 8 1/2 years to get done. and we are thrilled with the movie. i mean -- >> larry: you ought to be. >> it's just got a lot of integrity to it. it was brilliantly done, the performances of hillary and sam and everybody. we always need to get irish men -- >> larry: you look so much alike. how important was barry to you, betty? >> well, you know, hillary says that i'm her hero, barry is definitely my hero, i say that all the time. without him it wouldn't have happened. i don't believe it would have. he's very important to me. >> larry: hillary, have you learned more about this now that you have made this movie that all of these people are free? >> absolutely. that's one of the blessings of my job. that i get to walk in someone else's shoes and learn something that i wouldn't if i weren't an actor. >> larry: one can only imagine, sam, to be and we'll meet some of the gentlemen later who are here tonight in our studio, to play someone who didn't do what he's charged with doing, what's it like, how do you feel to be a prisoner when you're innocent? >> it's hard for me to imagine, i mean as much research as i did, it's still unfathomable to put yourself in that position. you talk to some of these people, you see documentaries, it's really unimaginable. >> larry: wouldn't you think you would go nuts, barry? to be in jail if you didn't do something? >> i think we have lost a lot of people who couldn't deal with it. >> suicide? >> there's a pattern about these people. the first two or three years you're in prison for a crime you didn't commit, it eats you alive, the anger is just beyond imagination and at a certain point in order to survive, you have to transcend it and it's an incredible, spiritual act. and, you know, people say oh, they're not bitter when they get out. i mean, these men have good reason for resentment. but what people are picking up when they say that is that there's a certain spiritual transcendence that's remarkable. >> larry: how many more in the country are in prison and don't belong there? the movie is "conviction." it opens october 15. we'll get some more answers next. more for their money. good. this time, i'm watching fees like a hawk. i hate hidden fees. why should i have to pay for something that i shouldn't have to pay for? td ameritrade's pricing is clear and it's straightforward... it's spelled out upfront. no hidden fees... no bait and switch. no gotchas. and there's one flat rate for online equity trades... fobig accounts... or small ones. that's the way it ought to be. call, click, or come in to td ameritrade. >> larry: we're back with barry scheck and hilary swank and sam rockwell, all involved in this extraordinary film "conviction" which opens october 15. you describe the character you play as a lovable screw up, right? >> that might be a different film. >> larry: he was, though, wasn't he, barry? >> he was. you know, sam's portrayal is terrific. >> larry: it's unbelievable. >> because kenny was really funny, he was really the life of the party, as they were saying. but also, i mean, my god, what he went through and his experiences were really extraordinary. he really had one of the worst imprisonments of any client we have had. i mean -- >> larry: really? >> he had hepatitis c, he really suffered terribly in prison and he came out with such a life force. isolation, yeah. >> larry: did you ever give up, betty? >> me? >> all those years? >> no, i have bad times, there were times when i didn't think i would be able to make it. there were many hurdles i had to take one at a time, but i knew i couldn't give up because i would have a lot to lose, i would have lost kenny. >> larry: your coactor and friend al pacino told me after playing kevorkian that he likes playing real people, people he got to know. did you enjoy playing someone who you knew? >> i did enormously. i played a lot of real life people and it's kind of a trajectory i can see now looking back in my career. but only two, including one of them being betty ann, were actually alive. it's wonderful, it's like, you know, a lot of my homework is just hanging out with her. and playing fictional characters, you have to kind of make up a lot of the details and the specifics about what you're doing, but getting to meet betty ann, i got to meet all of the onion layers of a person, you know? >> larry: well put, kenny was arrested two years after the murder. let's watch another clip from "conviction." >> when time was roughest, benjamin made sure there was food on the table. >> i need to interrupt you, father. kenneth waters, you're under arrest. you need to come with us. >> can't we wait until after the funeral? >> that's okay. just take care of man dye. okay, i'm coming, i'm coming. >> please, can't this wait? >> what's that for? >> just until after the funeral? >> oh, my god. give us a break over here. >> kenneth waters, you're under the arrest for the murder of katarina brown. >> you let me go two years ago? >> we got you now. >> is that a hard scene to do? >> it always takes a lot of focus in a scene like that, it's surreal, you try to imagine that happening. >> did you watch the filming? >> i watched a lot of the filming, i was there for most of it. >> larry: did it feel funny? >> very funny, and you never know how it's going to end up because i see how hard they work, they can work 14 hours to do one minute of a scene and i'm like you don't know which minute will be on the screen later. >> larry: tony said they take some liberties, is there a lot? or is it pretty much true to form? >> pretty much true to form. the only difference might be some of the sequence might be different. everything didn't happen at the same time that they said it but everything did happen. and everybody just portrayed those feelings perfectly. especially juliette lewis. >> i reached my hand in the pocket and there was like layer upon layer of kleenex. you said this was cathartic for you to relive. >> yes, i spent many hours talking to hillary, sam, tony, and i always felt later that i was doing therapy. it was sort of years of therapy. it was the same thing on set. >> larry: how long after he got out did he die? >> six months. >> larry: how did he die? >> an accidental fall. he fell and hit his head and died of a brain injury. >> larry: how old was he? >> 47. >> larry: you're around tragedy all the time, scheck, aren't you? >> it seems that way. i know, i know. >> larry: the movie is "conviction." i can't extol it enough the terrific minnie driver joins us next. we're going to be friends, we're the only ones in class who have been through puberty. i'll start. i got these lefty parents and they're always telling me i should put my big mouth to use and go into the system. so you know, i ignored them, of course. then after partying for too many years, i finally figured out what i wanted to be when i grew up and it turned out my parents were right so here i am. what about you? >> i just don't have time for a friend right now. >> yeah you do. i mean i'm all you got. >> larry: we're back, joining us is minnie driver, the academy award nominated actress. she place abra rice in the movie "conviction" and the real -- she helped her prove that kenny was innocent. we have an actress and the person she played and an actress and the person she played. minnie, how did you play this part? >> i couldn't believe that it was a real story when i read it and i knew that i loved hillary, but falling in love with ms. rice was fantastic. i mean i don't look anything like her and i think tony goldwyn, maybe he saw that we have the same sort of spirit. >> larry: right, you don't look alike at all. all right, abra how well did she get you? >> pretty well. she was a lot nicer. >> larry: were you as tough as you were portrayed? >> tougher. >> larry: do you think she was -- they wouldn't have gone much further if she weren't around, would they, barry? >> she's a public defender in new haven. she's the real deal. >> larry: you are a public defender in new haven now? >> yes. >> larry: and what was it like for you to play a real person? >> it's very strange, but amazing. because abra was there for a lot of the scenes that i filmed and it was really good to witness her and betty ann's relationship which is based on a lot of razzing and humor and i think when you've been through the kind of war that they went through together, you come out the other side with a pretty strong relationship. >> larry: did you know kenny well? >> briefly. >> larry: did you believe he was innocent? >> absolutely. >> larry: what made you believe it? we understand the sister. you weren't a sister. what made you believe it? >> because betty thought he was innocent. so i thought he was innocent and that's the reason i went to law school. so help the innocent. and not so innocent. >> larry: as a public defender, everyone tells you they're innocent, right? >> everybody. >> larry: so how do you break down the difference? >> well, they're there as barry knows to perform a service. it's not up to the public defender or the defense attorney to make that decision. but my friend betty ann said her brother was innocent, i believed he was innocent. >> larry: did hillary get you to play this, minnie? >> she was a big reason that -- >> larry: you're friends? >> we are friends now. >> larry: you weren't friends then? >> we didn't know each other. we have the same amazing manager. and he kind of put us together. but it was, you know, an extraordinary story with hillary and tony goldwyn directing and -- >> larry: that it is. >> and sam rockwell, too. >> larry: betty, did minnie get your friend right? >> yes, she did. >> no, it was so wrong, it was terrible. >> larry: abracadabra. >> abra has an unbelievable story and she can be very uplifting. and i think minnie definitely captured that. >> larry: let's look at another scene from "conviction." watch. >> betty, they destroyed it. >> no. that evidence exists somewhere and i'm going to find it. >> okay, let's say you do find it. what if the dna matches kenny's? >> get out. get the hell out of my house right now. >> no. you got to hear this. you can be an amazing fighter, the most brilliant lawyer in the world. there are forces greater than you and you may n