humiliate, that's not how people learn. >> no. look, to punish someone for not being taught about something and at the same time simultaneously be watching this movement to stop teaching something, there is a conundrum there, an inherent tension in that. >> there's tension to that and precisely, frankly, this is how oppressive systems and how white supremacy has been able to continue and replicate itself is that it likes to prevent us from discussing it, right? it survives in many ways both "out in the open", right, and in the dark. and i think the discussion around whiteness and historical forms of white supremacy is the only way we're going to be able to move forward and heal from so much of this past pain. >> karen attiah, i always love