cetera. but the question is do you foresee that new taxes -- you're talking about a revenue shortage. if you've got a slow economy, there's only a couple of ways. >> just to be clear on taxes, i think we have some ways of emerging -- not consensus, convergence of views. i think there's a broad sense the tax code is too complex, that it should be simplified. there's a broad sense that there are loopholes and credits that make the system unfair and distort the economy. >> let me ask you about the debt ceiling. when will we hit it? >> i think washington pays entirely too much attention to trying to figure out the day we run out -- >> i don't need to know the day. just circa when do you think that's going to be necessary? >> i said publicly we can get through labor day. obviously, as we get closer, we'll have a better sense much there's a great deal of danger of trying to pinpoint. congress should act immediately. we hit the debt ceiling in may. we've been using extraordinary measures since may to pay our