things that you acknowledge were abuses, are you embarrassed? does it bother you? >> well, i'm embarrassed and still disgusted with my colleagues who abide by the abuses, but the abuses were occasional. they were not the defining feature of the program. the program went on for seven years. >> how can you -- how can you say that waterboarding is not torture? i'm really confused by that because it just seems it's a mock execution. the person can't breathe. why is it not torture? >> well, listen, a lot of people feel that way, and i understand that, of course, that's torture. jake, i'm a lawyer. torture is legally defined in the u.s. statute. at the time i had mercifully had never had exposure to the torture statute because the cia had never done anything that even came close. i went to the department of justice in a time of great national crisis. they issued memos back to me