transpired and that makes it more believable of the "new york times" reporting that barr had a hand or was at least interested in continuing along that path. figuring out what were the origins. now this misses the forest through the trees, erica, if the fixation is on the underlying or the origins and not on the underlying claims that have been made, it is reminiscent of what is going on right now with the whistle-blower complaint. the shoot the messenger philosophy as opposed to investigating the underlying substantive allegations that are there. >> and that is what i would say a page from a playbook that a well-worn pagebook we've seen. senate democratsond judiciary committee are demanding that barr testify. do you see him complying with that request? >> well he very well should. he doesn't have a leg to stand on why he could not. the idea of testifying is to figure out, one, whether he did have some role in trying to allow rudy giuliani who you know is not an employee of the federal government to play a role in foreign diplomacy or other nefarious acts and he