>> we have really delved into this, leadership to get the dud rate from 20% historically, as far as were to, but over the years we use them and desert storm for example and use them since, but to get the dud rate down below 20%, to between 1-2, i don't think any country has been able to do that, the russians dud rate is 30%, they have no concern about killing civilians, in fact they are firing munitions into civilian areas as opposed to what ukrainians want to do is to use the munitions against the russian soldiers in the field, not civilian areas, so they are not comparable in terms of what ukraine was to do and what russia has been doing. >> we were unfortunately witnesses to exactly what you talked about early in the war, seeing the bombs exploding in urban areas and towns and in ukraine, former secretary william cohen, thank you for