i have said and there have been a number, have said there's no evidence to say that hillary clinton or her campaign have anything to do with the birther rumor. and the rumors go back even before clinton ran for president. >> and they go way, way back when he first ran for state senate. but really the question on the table and what donald trump was trying to say today was he was trying to connect hillary clinton herself to spreading that rumor in '07 and '08 in her white house campaign. we do know some of her supporters did try to spread that rumor but that doesn't mean she was behind it or that she orchestrated it in any way. >> charles, my question to you is why does he say at the end of his comments today that hillary clinton -- donald trump was the original birther and doesn't switch your votes for her. does birtherism translate into votes? >> obviously that's what he's certainly implying. but i think the key thing that mark just said is that if you have a he said/she said sort of