literally coming off, and if you can level off, which mitchell will try to do, you pass such a level of g-force, you can't imagine if it's survivable or whether nibble would be conscious. so when you try to run this through this simulator, it really can't be done. >> the actual numbers of 45,000 and 23,000, martin, may be slightly off. they sort of admit that the range or capability of the malaysians might not have been as strong. but the fundamental point of going up and coming down, going up, coming down, do the two of you believe that that would have been possible in these circumstances albeit not to the extremes? >> mitchell? >> that is definitely in the realm of the extreme. going up and down like that, i mean, flying any airplane is all about very small, smooth corrections. you have passengers in the back.