When you look at these specific questions about outreach by the campaign to russia, arent these questions about collusion . Once again, im not going to get into a back and forth about questions leaked or anything having to do with the Special Counsel and i would refer you to the president s attorney. With the exception a swipe at schiff. The white house passes the buck. While the president says the buck doesnt even exist. Keeping them honest, the buck may not stop there. The president didnt wait long to weigh in on these possible mueller questions. Reporter while the president tweeted about these things this morning, he did not answer the question. I was in the oval office with him earlier today and asked him if he wanted to comment on these questions. And he declined to do so. It appears that be the white house and the president prefer
from House Republicans who have been backed by speaker paul ryan, turned over documents giving the republicans access. There are thousands of other documents that the gop wants to see. In a private meeting last month, mark meadows and jim jordan both asked to see an unredacted memo. Could investigate in the russia probe and rosenstein resisted telling them no. Meadows and other conservatives have discussed the possibility of Impeaching Rosenstein if he doesnt comply. When rosenstein was asked about this by our colleague laura jared, he pushed back. Have there been people who are making threats privately and
publicly maki publicly. Reporter respondsing that rosenstein should stepped down. And that is exactly what democrats say the republicans are up to by these tactics. They believe the gop wants to give trump cover to fire him. He was careful in his remarks saying he didnt want to answer this in the context of any Current Situation that is going on meaning the Mueller Investigation. But he said to the Justice Department has in the past reached an opinion that a sitting president cannot be i indicted. It was in 1973, an opinion reached then saying that such an indictment would
unconstitutionally undermine to carry out constitution obligation. That was reached by somebody in the department at that time and you shouldnt draw any inference. Joining me now allen d dershowitz, also chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. That is blatantly false, isnt it . There are at least a dozen questions in there. It is not just blatantly false about the questions because as you have pointed out several times, there are many questions in the mueller list that deal with collusion. But the fact that the president keeps saying over and over again, there was no collusion, there was no collusion, that has not been established and in fact there is lots of evidence that collusion did take place. You know, starting with the
infamous meeting in trump tower where donald trump jr. Sought to get dirt on Hillary Clinton from the russian government. That is collusion right there and that is just the beginning. And i think patients is not a virtue that we all have. But there is an investigation about collusion. There is already some evidence of collusion and we will see if mueller finds more. But the key is to distinguish between illegally aspects of collusion and unlawful. Meeting someone to get dirt is a terrible thing tong but not unlawful. To distinguish between lawful but maybe bad, unlawful and criminal. Thats true of the Obstruction Of Justice as well. When the president says it is hard to obstruct justice, that is wrong. Martha stewart went to jail
for talking to agents about a crime. He was saying why would anybody obstruct justice. Can i answer that question . I understand the answer. People will do that because they have no idea whether it is an underlying crime. Also let him finish. Just one more point. The emphasis in the questions on why the president fired comey strengthens the case for Rod Rosenstein recusing himself because there is absolutely no doubt that he will be called as a witness if there is an indictment. If there is charges, if there is impeachment. Any kind of Legal Proceedings relating to why the president fired comey, the first witness has to be the man who wrote the memo justifying the firing. Why would someone lie when there wasnt an underlying crime, here is a reason. Because they are liars. Liars lie. Regardless of the legal setting in which they find themselves. People who are compulsive liars, they lie. And as allen pointed out correctly, there doesnt have to be an underlying crime. Lying is not a crime. Lying to the fbi is a crime. The New York Times has a lead editorial today in which it says every question that mueller is going to ask trump, he knows the answer to. They reiterated what comey said. The way investigation works you get all the information, you know what you are going to do, and you ask the question of the subject in order to give them a chance to lie and that is a perjury trap. Raises a legal argument that trumps people can make saying you are not allowed to ask him a question in which you dont know the answer. The object of the grand jury is to find out what you dont know. But a perjury trap makes it sound like this is somebody who cant help themselves and lies just comes comes out of their m. And if you only fall into a perjury trap if you chose to lie. It is an improper function of the grand jury to set a perjury trap. Do you agree with that . I completely disagree with that. Donald trump is a key witness in the investigation. Perhaps the key witness. The idea that he somehow is excused from testifying because the grand jury already knows some of the information about which he will testify is just a
preposterous idea. That is not my argument. For example, if they have a witness who says, i was on a call with trump and here i have my notes and i have a tape recording. You cannot ask him a question were you on a call with that person. I won a case like that a few years ago in massachusetts. Why not . The grand jurys purpose is to get information not to give people an opportunity to commit perjury. That is not an appropriate function. We got to get a quick break. When we come back Breaking News from the Washington Post that Raising Possibility of subpoena. The latest next. Feel the clarity of nondrowsy claritin and relief from symptoms caused by over
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leaked. I assume those were the questions leaked last night. Correct. And to be clear, that is not in totality everything they can ask the president. Legal team is saying we want to know what you can ask us. Basically tell us why a president ial interview is compelled. This is the leader of the free will. They provided those 49 questions. What our experts have told us is they are likely to deal down deeper in those projects. Showing emails and asking questions what he remembers in meeting. That is what some of his advisers feel, can trip him up in an interview with the Special Counsel. The 49 questions that first broke last night, those were actually written down by jay sekulow according to your
reporting correct . Chronicled in writing in that side after having a conversation with Special Counsel mueller and his team. It wouldnt seem possible it was a leak from the mueller team if those questions were written by jay sekulow obviously doesnt discuss our sourcing on stories. But clear to say the questions have been reported by the noew york times and the Washington Post. The president himself tweeted about it this morning complaining about the leak itself which now seems obvious in terms of what direction it is coming from. Josh dawsey. I think Special Counsel has taken some pride in this investigation having a spokesperson who does not comment or have been even
critical of the president s legal team over time to what they perceive as speaking to the press inartfully. Obviously as reporters we welcome everyone to speak to us. Appreciate your reporting as always. Back with professor Allen Dershowitz and Jeffrey Toobin. I think where we are going is to a subpoena. The president s legal team should have no interest in answering these enormously broad questions voluntarily. They will get the same broad questions artfully asked at a grand jury but at least they will be able to challenge a, the entire process of subpoenaing the president. They will lose on that. I think they will win on some areas of questioning. For example, why did you fire. What was your motive. What was your reasoning. I dont think you can question
president ial acts. I think what you can get to is what the president is most vulnerable on and that is Business Dealings before he became president. No court is going to deny the grand jury the power to get to those questions and the irony is those questions that he has the best legal right to prevent are not the most important questions in which he has no legal light to prevent. Based on this reporting, do you believe what the professor just said that subpoena seems to be where we are headed. This article talks about how the president is fuming about the Michael Cohen raid. Doesnt want to sit down and talks about it 20 times a day it says in the article. I agree with allen that a subpoena is coming and agree that ultimately the president will lose. I disagree that the courts will limit mueller much in what he can ask. I think he will be allowed to
ask about motive because i think it is relevant. But the larger point is, i think the president has a way of short circuiting this entire process. And i think that is what he is going to do ultimately, take the fifth. No. No. Can i finish allen. Which is the president will denounce the process. It is a witch hunt. He doesnt want anything to do with this. There is nothing mueller can do if the president of course there is. He gives him immunity. Never going to get the president immunity. Let me tell you why. Because an immunity doesnt apply in the impeachment proceeding. And no matter what rosenstein you are not going to get a reversal. Now you can indict him, now you can prosecute him. If he foolishly takes the fifth, he gets to be asked all of these same questions under immunity and all the answers can be used against him in an impeachment
proceeding, you are an a plus student but boy on this one, taking the fifth, i am not going to give you your grade. It wont happen. Watch it happen. He is going to denounce. Come back. Jeff, to the professors point if he takes the fifth, im not a lawyer give him immunity. So jeff, why would he take the fifth if that is the case . Because the muellers office will never give him immunity. They are not going to give him the opportunity to excuse from any criminal prosecution down the road. That is what immunity means, never be used against you. The idea that this central figure is going to be excused from any kind of criminal liability. If the Department Of Justice believes that a president cannot be indicted then why would they, did the mueller team somehow
fight that . More over it is not transaction immunity, it is use immunity. They cant use the fruits of the evidence in the criminal prosecution. I think the odds of mueller giving the president of the United States immunity are infinitesimal. It is not going to happen and the president can end this process overnight if he decides to take the fifth. Bad judgment. Bad judgment as the lawyers who told president clinton to testify. He shouldnt have taken the fifth. He should have paid the money. No president has taken the fifth and i dont believe any president will take the fifth. Although we know the fifth is not an admission of guilt to the american public. And that would just be something that i dont think this president will ever do. We shall see. Stay with us after a quick break. Every legacy comes with a burden, a standard to bear, an expectation to surpass. But thats the point. Bring us doubt, and well bring you the first car with true handsfree driving for the freeway. Bring us a challenge and well reinvent what it means to own a car. Bring us all your expectations and well defy them. Again and again and again. Find your next cadillac at cadillac. Com. Proven to protect Street Skaters and freestylers. Again and again and again. Stops up to 97 uv. Lasts through heat. Through sweat. Coppertone. Proven to protect. With tcalled audible. Le app you can listen to the stories you love while doing the things you love, outside. Binge better. Audible. Build your next big thing to run in more places, without recoding. The ibm cloud. The cloud for smarter business. Meeting between the Special Counsel and the president s lawyers back in march. The lawyers insisted the president wasnt obligated to speak with investigators. Mueller had a different take. This according to the Washington Post and four people familiar with the meeting. Back now with Allen Dershowitz and Jeffrey Toobin and gloria borger. We are learning is it really now you have his new legal team in place and they are trying to figure out what to do and there is a sense among a lot of his attorneys that the president ought to stay away from this. Ought to fight this, and the president s State Of Mind particularly after the raid of his personal attorney, Michael Cohens office is im not going to sit for an interview. Whereas the president initially was sort of all for it. I am going to sit with mueller, and i can do this. Right now his State Of Mind is no way, im going to do this. Professor, how long a fight could the president put up through courts to try to resist a subpoena . In general, since he is the president , the courts will allow him to defer and ultimately the Supreme Court which is more than a year even with expedited appeals and that gets him to a time when congress is controlled by the democrats. He will lose enough that he will have to give some testimony under the worst of circumstances without his lawyer being there with no restrictions. And he will have to at least provide some answers.