Response to your reporting. He said, quote, the New York Times story is factually incorrect. I will not respond on a story thats biased against the department and advancing their own personal agenda but let me be clear about this. Based on my personal dealings with the president , there is no basis to invoke the 25th Amendment. I want to give you a chance to respond to that. I also want to point out when he says there is no basis, hes talking the present tense. Hes not saying, i never thought there was a basis. Yeah. That was my read. I mean im not going to parse rods statement. I think, myself and other news outlets have all now, including cnn, have recorded the basic facts that are now in dispute. The two basic facts are rod raised the idea of wearing a wire and in a second basic fact, in a memo Andrew Mccabe road that Special Counsel has rod raced the idea of the 25th
release of the transcripts of the witnesses in the russian investigation. The republicans refused. Mr. Nunes refused and mr. Gowan refused. All of a sudden they wanted to go on fox news. What precipitated this . Was it the manafort guilty plea . Did the lawyers say we want access to this . Because the very next day the president himself issues this injunction he wants classified documents released, a whole different set of classified documents. This looked like a coordinated effort. For those who believe theres a deepseated conspiracy against the president , didnt this kind of fit into that idea . Well, it could fit into a completely different kind of idea, and that is that the president is so unstable that lifetime career Public Servants who have worked in democratic administrations and republican administrations, many of whom are republicans like rod
rosenstein, have to contemplate whether the constitution applies when the president is incapacitated. I mean that is alarming. For those that are ready to believe there is a deep state, those kooky conspiracy theories, certainly theyll seize on this as theyll seize on Anything Else, and they may very well be pushed out there thinking its a useful way to defend the president. If rosenstein is fired, what happens then . If rosenstein were to be fired, it would be another clear demonstration of Obstruction Of Justice by the president. In the immediate aftermath, wed have to consider, you know, what does that mean in terms of our system of checks and balances . What is the response of congress . And probably most importantly l there be any republicans who are willing to defend the institutions of our government . Sadly they have been very few in number. I would hope if theres any effort to obstruct the investigation like the firing ofRod Rosenstein, that congress would pass a bill in stating the independent counsel law that would protect bob mueller. Congressman, i appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you. I want to continue this discussion, how stunning and the facts of it all and where it might lead. Joining us, cnn analyst gloria borger. I know youve heard about Rod Rosensteins job security tonight. . You wouldnt bet on it, but, again, for almost a year weve been talking about Rod Rosensteins job security. The president tweeted about him. He stopped lately. He seems to be focused more on jeff sessions. I know hes very important in the Mueller Investigation. Dont forget, hes the Special Counsels boss. If the Special Counsel says, you
know, i want to subpoena the president , hes got go to Rod Rosenstein to get permission to do that. I think the president s attorneys believe they have a decent relationship with Rod Rosenstein. Im sure they would rather he not be fired and create this kind of crisis, particularly right now at the same time as youre going through the Kavanaugh Hearings and the question about what happens with judge kavanaugh, but nobody can predict what donald trump is going to do. Hes going read this story, and hes going to have to decide whether, a, he believes the New York Times, which he doesnt normally believe, and, b, whether he believes a memo written by Andrew Mccabe who he doesnt believe, and if he doesnt believe those two thing, then hes going to be really angry at Rod Rosenstein. He may ask him maybe rosenstein will recuse himself from the investigation, maybe sessions will fire him, or maybe
the president will. David, its interesting because this is not the first time weve heard officials talk about the 25th Amendment in the anonymous New York Times oped alleged bibiy a senior official. I think that the conversations about the 25th academy are not big and damaging story. I dont think thats the big story. The story really is was he serious about taking a wire in to wire in and listen secretly and tape the president of the United States . Thats unheard of. There are those, of course, who argue, not the New York Times, but others who have been trying to catch up with the story, that he was being sarcastic. It sounds like he was being sarcastic in many ways. Bringing in a wire to try to capture disarray seems like an odd thing. Disarray seems to be more like an ongoing thing. Its not something you could immediately capture. I think thats right. I sort of assumed the wire was not only to capture the disar y disarray, but would apply to the 25th Amendment issue, that heres what hes like in real li life behind the scenes. But i must tell you if it bears out and he spent a whole month on it he was serious about going in with a wire, then i think its probably one of the dumbest mistakes ive ever seen a Public Servant make, to get into conversations like that. It just invites attacks, and i do think we have to remember that he works at the pleasure of the president. Thats the appointment. And if the president can no longer trust him, hes justified in asking that person to leave. I agree with gloria. I dont think hell do it quickly. I think theyre looking after the midterms. They dont want to upset the kavanaugh business. But just as importantly, they
dont want to have this in the middle of the campaign. Carl, is it appropriate to have him talking whether it was jokinging or not about surreptitiously recording the president of the United States . Well, if its a joke, i think it might be appropriate. I think weve got to look at a number of factors here. One is we are in a constitutional crisis. One of those is, for instance, there ought to be committees of congress to which mr. Rosenstein could explain what happened, what he said, and there be a Bipartisan Committee of congress at which some facts could come out in an impartial way and we would learn the full story after the New York Times has broken this huge important piece of reporting. Unfortunately there is no such committee because were in a constitutional crisis where the congress of the United States is totally dysfunctional. On top of that, we have a
president of the United States whos contemptuous of the rule of law, that one of the things that mr. Rosenstein, we know has been concerned about for months and months, is that contempt for the rule of law, the president s lie, and now he joins a long list of people in this presidency who fear that the president of the United States is not fit to be the president , is a danger to the national security, does not understand what the proper use and function of the Justice Department is. So all of these things are converging, and theyre converging at the time of a Midterm Election in which the president is going to throw all of this meat to his base and see what can be chewed up to somehow keep a majority in congress. But meanwhile we have the spectacle of little confidence in the president of the United States by those around him,
little confidence in the congress of the United States by almost anyone, and the one element of the system thats working, the press, the first amendment, the fake news s of e New York Times as the president would have it has broken this story. Cnn has confirmed elements of it. All of the kritzhe critics, thes doing its job. I want to get to john dean, but we need to take a quick break. Coming up next, the president has just weighed in on this. Used a new word stench when describing the Justice Department. And later, a new deadline for the woman who says Supreme Court nominee Brets Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her. Details tonight. Worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills dont. Flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. Most pills only block one. Flonase. So lets promote our falle a homecomingtravel dealame,
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places. I think the thing with Rod Rosenstein and his leaked behavior, i dont think its a fireable offense. If you look at the sequence of when this happened, this was at the time of the comey firing. They had done a job on him. They lure him into writing a memo and said that made for the pretext for firing comey. He was under a lot of heat as a result of that, and he had a lot of reason to distrust the white house at that point. The other thing is apparently he was present when some people went over there for interviews to the fbi director, and he was appalled at the president s interview techniques. So who knows what really goes on inside that white house. That might be why he was suggesting it. I dont find it outrageous. And ill tell you, its not unprecedent either. I was asked by prosecutors the wear a wire, and i refused to do
it. Why did you refuse . Because i think its an unfair situation, the same reason i didnt have the Recording Capability on my telephone, although, a lot of people in the Nixon White House people did. I think its a shady act. Gloria, i think the question right now is anyone safe at the Justice Department . Sessions clearly, i mean, has lost the president s confidence. Im not sure he ever had it since he recused himself. Now with Rod Rosenstein, if the president wants to, he could clean house tonight or the day after the midterms. What about his new director for the fbi, chris wray. He came out and talked about the lingering stench over there. At some Point Chris Wray is going to have to come out and defend his people and defend his department. So i dont think anybody is safe over there. I think its a question of timing. Its very clear sessions is going to be gone, probably after the election. And i think sort of the game
right now inside the white house is to control the president and to try and say, look, dont do anything right now because we have this election coming up in 40 odd days and we want to get kavanaugh passed. This is important to your base. Sit tight if you possibly can. We all know with donald trump that may last a couple of days, but we just we just cant predict. You know, hes going to bedminster this weekend. The last time, if i recall, he was at bedminster a while ago, that was when he wrote a letter saying he was going fire jim comey. So who knows whats going to happen. I guess the other question, david, is what impact would Rod Rosenstein have . I think it would be to take action against mueller and what adam schiff talks about is right. It puts pressure on the democrats to try to get republican votes to build a wall
to protect the Mueller Investigation. You know, the republicans have said we obviously dont need it. This suggests quite the opposite. The day is coming when you do need it. Let me go back if i might. I want to bring up something. Is the president fit. Thats not a big deal. We talk about it all the time here. What is different is if you begin to say maybe ill take a wire and id like to go over and talk to general kelly, chief of the white house, ill talk to sessions and maybe we can get a group to plot the downfall of the president of the United States, thats a serious matter. I think thats why the story is big. Carl, do you agree with that . That the mention of kelly and sessions . Yeah. Again, i think we need to know more about the context. The times story is a big
window onto something and now is the time for more information. But you need to keep the Bigger Picture in mind of mueller. This is all about the Mueller Investigation and the absolute determination of the president of the United States to obstruct it, to demean it, to undermine it, and shut it down. Thats what he has told everyone around him he means to do, and this is his response and its part of it and its incumbent on the United States to make sure it does not happen. It is the other part of the system that is working. We have indictments. We have informations pleaded to. We know that the president s personal lawyer is now trying to tell things to the Special Counsel. The president is in the crosshairs of an investigation and is acting like someone who is trying to obstruct justice and keep the facts from becoming known. Thats what a lot of this is all
about. Do you see congress at some point wanting to question rosenstein about what he said or didnt say . I noticed before we went on the air, a number of tweets, one from the House Judiciary Committee asking that there be hearings where rosenstein and everybody in the meeting as well as the documents be brought forward so they can be seen. Anderson, another thing on what would happen if he did fire rosenstein to mueller, the next person the last time i looked, the next person who has a confirmed post in the rankings in the Seniority Rankings of the leadership is the Solicitor General, and thats who would take charge of the investigation at that point. Anderson, heres the important thing to keep in mind about Rod Rosenstein also. Right now theres negotiations going on about the president testifying, and if bob mueller decides that he wants to
subpoena the president , he has to go to Rod Rosenstein and seek permission. If Rod Rosenstein isnt there, say the Solicitor General is there, is he more likely to get the permission or not . That factors in as well. Thank you very much. Well have more guests who join us. What about your reputation . Is that small . Owning your own thing is huge. Your partnerships, even bigger. With dell Small Business technology advisors, you get the oneonone partnership to grow your business. Because the only one who decides how big your business can be, is you. The dell vostro 14 laptop with 8th gen intel core processors. Get up to 40 off on select pcs. Call 877buydell today.
were going to get rid of that too. Senator santorum, should the president get rid of Rod Rosenstein . Well, look, if what is being reported is true, that he was actually trying to recruit people to or said he was going to recruit people to remove the president and that he offered to wear a wire, again, not in jest or otherwise but actually was serious about wearing a wire, those are pretty good grounds to remove anybody. I mean thats not something thats not a person that you want serving you at any level in government. So if thats the case but i have some real serious doubts about this story. This just doesnt this just doesnt sound right to me. So your doubt is that it was sarcastic or didnt happen . Either. Maybe part of it was sarcasm. Maybe part of