President bushs nominees, including a large number of District Courts and courts of appeals, and it was actually confirming letting the Senate Confirm nominations right up through september of an Election Year. No, if there were then that did not go through that it was for other reasons. He set, really, a record. Now, contrast that to what happened when george w. Bush was in the last two years of his presidency. I was chairman. So there could be no question on fairness, i put through 68 of his nominees. The republicans have about only 16 of president obamas in the last two years of his presidency, as opposed to the democrats allowing 68 of republican president s. Use any standard you want, republican president s were treated more fairly. Host your republican colleagues would disagree. Senator biden said they should not go forward with a nomination in 1992. Nothing happened in 1992 sen. Leahy no. Host now they are calling it the biden rule. Sen. Leahy yeah, we actually they raised that with president obama and Vice President biden, and they said read the whole speech. It makes it very clear that if we got past the election, then it raised the question, but he was confirming and there was no Supreme Court nomination at that point but he was confirming the republican president s nominees right up through september. It is not dissimilar from when the democrats took back over control of the senate at the end of president reagans term, and in the president ial Election Year, we brought onto the floor Justice Anthony kennedy, and every single democrat voted for justice kennedy. Host let me turn over to John Bresnahan. Mr. Bresnahan senator leahy, i want to talk about some of the very personal nature of the fight now over the impending Supreme Court nomination. A number of democrats have gone to the floor, including minority leader harry reid, and personally criticized the chair of the committee, senator grassley, your old friend, colleague, saying he is capitulating to the republican leadership. Theyre calling him incompetent failed leadership. Is it surprising the personal tone of the attacks on grassley . I want to get your reaction. Sen. Leahy well, senator grassley and i have been friends for years. Our wives are friends. But i think all of us were very, very surprised that almost immediately after the news came out that Justice Scalia died, he joined with republican leader mcconnell saying no matter what the constitution says we are not going to have a nomination or a hearing on a Supreme Court nomination. As you know, you spend enough time on the hill, there are a number of his public and republican colleagues that are amazed at that and uncomfortable with that, especially some of those up for reelection. If you are the chairman of the committee, youre supposed to make decisions based on what you think is best. Now, when i was chairman of last two years of president bushs term, sure, i had some democrats say why are you putting through his nomination . I said because they are there. It is what the constitution says, and i think it is a fair think to do. They obviously feel different. The heck with the constitution. The heck with fairness. I spoke on the floor thursday with senator grassley there, saying what he is doing is totally unprecedented. I cannot see why turning it back to the constitution, you know, the president the constitution says the President Shall nominate shall, not maybe he should it said he shall nominate, which president obama intends to do. Everyone of us puts up our hand. We take an oath of office under god saying we will uphold the constitution. All im saying is uphold the constitution. If they want to vote against a wellqualified man or woman for the Supreme Court, let them do it, but dont have this thing where we say we will not vote yes or no we will vote maybe. We do not have the guts to stand up and vote in an Election Year on who should be on the Supreme Court. Vote yes, or vote no. That is what you are paid to do. That is your job. That is what you are sworn to do. Host david herszenhorn. Mr. Herszenhorn can i ask you, is there anything in the constitution this an easy yes or no is there anything in the constitution that guarantees a nominee hearings and a vote . Sen. Leahy no, well the constitution says we shall advise and consent. That is usually interpreted to be you advise, and you can vote no, but theres never been a time never been a time mr. Herszenhorn but if the advice is wait until after the election, and the consent is not forthcoming sen. Leahy no well, then lets have the courage to do it, and have the hearings at least have the hearings. There has never been a time, never been a time that a Supreme Court nominee was denied a chance to have a hearing and a vote. We have even had Supreme Court nominees that were defeated with members of the president s own party voting against them in the committee so they did not have the majority vote. The democrats still said let them go for it, have the vote of the whole senate, because we are not elected to vote maybe. We are elected to vote yes or no. This is a very critical position. I do not think the American People are going to take very kindly to the United States senate saying were not going to do our job, we do not have the courage to vote yes or no. Mr. Herszenhorn and if i can just follow up on the nastiness question one of the things minority leader harry reid says is senator grassley will go down as one of the most obstructionist Judiciary Committee leaders in history, comparing that to during the civil rights era, those blocking civil rights legislation. Do you agree with that do you think that would be the worst performance by sen. Leahy i will let senator reid and senator grassley speak for themselves. I remember when i was chairman of the Judiciary Committee, i made a decision of one names when names would come up, and wouldnt, and come up for a vote and i make sure they did. Thats is not happening now. I cannot imagine if i was chairman, with a republican president , whether it was an Election Year or not, saying if you nominate someone for the Supreme Court, we are even going to have a hearing on it. If i did, certainly in vermont, people would say i was being totally irresponsible. I realize that senator mcconnell, who, after all, said his primary goal is that president obama fails, has said no. That is not what the constitution says. Mr. Bresnahan you mentioned mcconnell. In the meeting with yourself, president obama, Vice President biden, and senator reid, he said to you democrats that you are hypocrites on this, basically, that in this meeting, the only four that had filibustered a Supreme Court nomination were you four democrats. What is your response . Sen. Leahy easy response. He is talking about the alito nomination. There was a pro forma vote. That was more just show. Mr. Bresnahan this is when he is saying you filibuster. Sen. Leahy we disagree. He was not denied a vote. He was given a vote. Mr. Bresnahan president obama did filibuster a nominee. Sen. Leahy he did vote against the fact is everyone knows as well as mcconnell that we were going to have that vote up or down on alito, and there was not a person in either of the cloak rooms that thought we were not going to have a vote, and he was confirmed by well under 60 votes, but he was confirmed. This is very similar to the talk about robert bork. Now, the fact is former judge bork came in the confirmation hearing. He probably had a large majority of votes on his side. He did such a terrible job in that hearing that some of the press i think the New York Times in one of the editorials referred to him as having a confirmation conversion. Ultimately, the senate Judiciary Committee, the majority of them, voted against him, including some republicans, voted against him. The Reagan White House was quietly asking him please withdraw your name. He said he wanted a vote. I, and a lot of other side whether we are for him or not, he wants a vote, he is entitled to one. He went on the floor. He had a vote. Eight or more publicans voted against him. Not every democrat did, but the majority did, and he was defeated. Host let me ask about the meeting John Bresnahan brought up what was the tone of the meeting . Sen. Leahy we actually started throwing chairs. It was cordial. Mr. Herszenhorn that is why they have couches. You couldnt throw them. Sen. Leahy the couches were too big to throw. Host define cordial. Sen. Leahy people were not the president made a case for why they would follow constitution. Senator mcconnell said we do not want you to follow the constitution, but whether you do or dont, were not going to allow a hearing or a vote. Host some in the white house said the president was pretty frustrated with senator mcconnell. Sen. Leahy the president stated his position very clearly, and we went on to other things. I will let him speak to his frustration. I have known president obama for a long time, long before he was in the senate i mean, was president. He does not lose his cool or his temper. It was outrageous we were in the senate together, and we used to work out in the gym. He is in a lot better shape than i am, and there would be all kind of outrageous comments, but in public, especially as president , he keeps a pretty calm demeanor. There is no question there was steely determination by president obama that he would follow the constitution and he would set a name, and he would do it soon. Mr. Herszenhorn we know he will make a nomination, and when he does, it will be because of senator mcconnells stance it will be unlike any nomination in the past. This is a nominee that is looking at not weeks of a fight, potentially an openended in, and one that is a Public Relations battle as well, and there are some of your republican colleagues that suggested that this nominee will have to be prepared for being part of the messaging fight, and you have been through this many times. It is extremely rare that we get opportunity to talk to a nominee and hear from them before they appear before the committee, the hearings. Do you envision that could happen there would be a nominee that would be engaging in interviews on television in public knocking on senator mcconnells door . Or do you think it will play out in more traditional fashion . Sen. Leahy i do not think you will see a nominee on television. We have not seen that before. There will be a lot of senators talking about he or she what is happening, but the reflection will be on the senate. If we are elected to do our job, if we say for the first time in history we are not going to have a hearing not even have a hearing say nothing about a vote on a Supreme Court justice, i would not want to be one of the senators who made that decision, because it would be so unprecedented, so opposed to what the constitution requires, and it would be irresponsible. Now, i have cast more votes in the senate than any other senator. I say that only two point out this have they all than those i redo the same way today maybe, maybe not. But have some been very difficult politically very difficult . Yes. Some, i was told, if i voted a particular way i would lose reelection. I still voted that way because i thought it was my duty to vote and follow the constitution, but to vote maybe i am not going to vote yes, i am not going to vote no i am going to vote maybe, and then to allow senators to go home and say it is a pretty good nominee, a pretty bad nominee, but i would like to know more come on. I do not think the American People will stand for that republicans or democrats. Host another 10 minutes remaining. John bresnahan. Mr. Bresnahan can we cover some other issues . Sen. Leahy no. [laughter] mr. Bresnahan we could stay on this issue if you want. Im happy to do so. Criminal Justice Reform it is something you have worked on. Where does it stand out . What is going to happen next . Sen. Leahy we actually raise this at the meeting with the president. All of us realize if were going to get real criminal Justice Reform done, we should do it soon, and not right in the middle of the throes of the president ial election season. I mean, i have been working on this for several years. We have come close several times. We know one thing, it is going to be bipartisan. Two, no one is going to get everything they want, but as a former prosecutor, i have got to say that we dramatically need criminal Justice Reform. I think we should continue to make efforts. Senator durbin has worked extremely hard on this. We have had a strong Bipartisan Coalition senator booker, senator lee we all understand we are not going to get everything we want, but we have got to do better. I met with the chairman of the house. We have had a number of private meetings in my office. Mr. Bresnahan chairman good life sen. Leahy i have invited a number of senators, republicans and democrats, sometimes together, in my office, in the capitol, because it is a convenient spot to meet, and i hope we can do it. As i said to the president , and to my republican and democratic colleagues, do it before we have a president ial nomination. I do not want to be tied up in the president ial election debate. Mr. Herszenhorn speaking of the president ial election, we have seen your home state, the state of vermont become the wellspring of successful liberal president ial candidates. Howard dean, now senator sanders. Can you talk about what it is about vermont that makes it the bastion of american liberals in the 21st century, and there are a lot of people that say Hillary Clintons running mate will have to be someone that can satisfy Bernie Sanders followers. Are you the right guy sen. Leahy no. Mr. Herszenhorn that balances liberalism, with experience, prosecutorial moderation sen. Leahy my people should know vermont is the only state in the union that has elected one democrat to the senate, and that is me. Since 1962 we have had a democratic governor, republican governor. Democratic governor, republican governor. It has gone back and forth. So, we are not i was going to say we are cranky. We are independent, and we like it that way. Bernie sanders is highly respected in vermont, and he got, i think, his highest percentage in the country, in vermont, but he also has miles across the country because he has spoken to a lot of things people care about. Now, secretary clinton has, too. She probably does not get quite the coverage, but she has spoken to the need of having to have great changes in everything from college tuition, to the ability to have jobs. Mr. Herszenhorn any thoughts on who might be that person that can satisfy sanders rotors and join her voters and join her on that . Sen. Leahy no. I have had some candidates ask my opinion, as well as others, who should be Vice President. I can assure you it will not be me. I do not want it. We have had some very good Vice President s. Whoever if we elect a democratic president , what i would urge, they have somebody as Vice President who can work well with the congress the house and the senate. I use two examples. The two Vice President s i have been there with that have done the best job working with the congress one was fritz mondale, and the other was george h. W. Bush, which may surprise a lot of people, but they had the ability to work with members of congress. Host not Vice President biden . Sen. Leahy oh, no, he works with members of congress, too, but members of congress are less politicized. We spent more time in washington, and these two spent a lot of time it is nothing against joe biden is one of my closest friends and i do not hesitate to call and if i have a question, or vice versa. [laughter] mr. Bresnahan quickly, a now for us cuba. The president is going to cuba. For years you pushed to open the relationship with cuba. You have to feel good about this, and talk about the historic nature of obamas visit. Sen. Leahy i am very happy with this. I started years ago our dinners we had with fidel castro. We actually been to the baseball game with him that afternoon, and i have pushed and pushed. I helped get Elian Gonzalez back to his father. I am respected for that in cuba. We met a number of times with raul castro, and i have urged president obama right from the beginning, make this change. I know president s have always had this memo hold tight, we will be rid of those castros. Well, president eisenhower was the first one, and every president since. I brought messages back and forth between president obama and president castro. I believe very strongly this is the right move. Is there going to be a Democratic Society in cuba . No, but will it reflect what is best in us . Yes, and im looking forward to going down there with president obama when he goes and the end of this month. I will tell you one quick story a number of times i have been down there, a number of times with ambassadors from other countries down to cuba. One was the ambassador to chile. When we were down there for the raising of the flight, he came to her and said we respect cuba and the United States, but your relationship has always been like a stone in our share. Today, the stone came out of our shoe. I think that says it all. Host quick follow up . Sen. Leahy you want to come with us . [laughter] host let me ask you