Transcripts For CSPAN Physicians Testify On Abortion Restric

>> the president is a very engaged, we are all hopeful. today's hearing, is the fourth i have held in -- to just -- to investigate the decades long effort to bulldoze abortion rights by republican politicians. since the supreme court decision in dobbs versus jackson, republican-led states have pushed to impose draconian abortion bands that take away -- in -- bans that take away women's rights. with more bands taking effect nearly every week. just last friday, a abortion ban in arizona that was originally passed in 1901. a law banning abortion from more than a century ago, before women won the right to vote is now back in effect. republicans are now turning back the clock on women's rights. back to a time when women were not viewed as equal citizens, and when they had no control over their own bodies. more than 33 million women of reproductive age live in states hostile to abortion. most of these states, abortion is severely restricted or outright band. this means that roughly half of the women in america live in states that robbed them of their fundamental freedom to make decisions about their bodies. this stands in stark contrast to other countries, other world communities, like ireland, i urgent tina, -- argentina, new zealand and mexico all of which are expanding women's rights to abortion. today, we will hear directly from a patient, and doctors who will share their first-hand account of accessing abortion care. the barriers being erected in their states, and the harms caused right taking away this fundamental right. we will hear that abortion bands prevent doctors from exercising their professional judgment about what their patients need, out of fear of being charged with the crime. some doctors have reported having to wait until patients are close to death until they can provide emergency care. for example, one woman in texas who suffered a miscarriage was forced to carry fetal remains for two weeks because doctors denied her care due to texas abortion ban. another texas woman had to prove that an infection was killing her, before doctors would agree that she was in enough danger to terminate her lethal pregnancy. this is horrifying. republicans are not done yet. it turns out, republicans aren't satisfied with states banning abortion, they want to ban abortion nationwide. earlier this month, senator lindsey graham, introduced a bill to ban abortion everywhere in the united states, after 15 weeks -- in the house, nearly 100 republicans, including the ranking member, as many republicans on this committee, have cosponsored this extreme bill. and a new memo released by the committee today reveals that during just this congress alone, congressional republicans have introduced more than 50 separate measures to ban or restrict abortion. you seek -- you see where their priorities are, right here with these 50 different bills. some of them put doctors in prison. some of them ban travel from state to state if you seek abortion. some are just outright bands -- outright ban. they were all measures to restrict abortion. republicans are showing us, the americans, the america that they envision. it limits women's freedom, and imposes government control over our bodies and choices. it is an america where it -- where a politician can force a woman to give birth against her will regardless of the consequences for her health, her will and her family. this chilling american vision is not with the american people want. the majority of the people in the united states support a woman's right to choose. they support abortion rights. that support is only made stronger since the extremist, dangerous, supreme court decision in dobbs. while republicans are pushing to criminalize abortion nationwide, the democrats are fighting to protect the freedom of every person to make their own medical decisions. without interference from the state, and to protect the patient and doctor personal relationship. that is why democrats pass the women's health protection act which would establish a federal right to abortion. and ensuring access to abortion act. which would safeguard a patient's right to travel across state lines to obtain abortion care. unfortunately, republicans overwhelmingly oppose both bills. and democrats in congress stand with the american people, we stand with women who want the autonomy to make their own health care decisions about their bodies, abortion is necessary health care. it must be accessible to all. we will not stand by while that freedom is stripped away from us. i want to thank each and every one of our witnesses for sharing their stories and for the bravery in coming before the committee today. they are doing a tremendous service to their communities and to the nation, i now yield to representative highs -- who is representing representative coomer for his opening statement. >> i would like to begin by echoing chairwoman's thoughts and concerns for those in harm's way and florida and elsewhere. with the hurricane, truly when one state in this country suffers, we all suffer with them. our prayers, our concern, and our aid, certainly are with those who have been effected. 50 years ago, and -- in roe v. wade, the supreme court tragically strayed from the text of the constitution and took away from the american people the power to decide the question of abortion for themselves. this constitutionally illiterate decision resulted in the death and over 63 million unborn americans. as justin's -- justice byron wright wrote in his dissent, decision for the most part should be left to the people and the political processes that the people have devised to govern their affairs. this summer, the supreme court heeded the wisdom of justice white and -- justice right and returned that decision to the american people, i would underscore the word moral, spiritual, and religious issue for kaplan's millions -- for countless millions of americans who hold to a biblical worldview on life. those that hold life is precious that it is created by god, i certainly count myself among those millions of americans. in fact, the -- people like jacob and esau, simpson, jeremiah, king david, all that the scripture references were known in the womb before they were born. for us or companies to have policies or requirements to force people to violate their deeply held religious convictions is wrong, whether it's be forcing them to use their tax dollars to pay for abortions or whether it be forcing individuals in the medical industry to assist in abortions when it goes against their religious beliefs or be fired if they do not do so. it is wrong for us to go down that path. putting that aside, this hearing today, rather than engage honestly on the merits of politics and law and science, democrats are fear mongering and spreading misinformation. the new york times published a piece encouraging democrats to, quote, lead into the politics of fear. democrats are trying to ignore the science or spin it for political purposes. if we are following the science, modern medical advances make it clear that unborn babies are just that. precious human lives that we must protect. the ultrasound provides the means to understand more about unborn babies than at any other point in history, and here are a few examples. within the first four weeks of pregnant sea, the baby develops a heartbeat -- pregnancy, the baby develops a heartbeat. this is not merely a manufactured sound. it is an ultrasound. referring to an unborn baby's heartbeat as cardiac activity does not change the fact it is another attempt to deny what we are talking about, and that is a human life. as early as 12 weeks, a baby can feel pain, which is why at the seizure -- anesthesia is admitted during a field surgery. the only cases when anesthesia is not administered during an abortion. at 15 weeks, all of the baby's major urgent -- organs are formed. babies are born as early as 22 weeks and survive at rates of nearly 60%. recently, scientists recorded evidence that unborn babies respond with facial reactions to flavor of foods eaten by their mothers. it is fascinating. over the past several decades, scientific advancements have provided us with insights into the development of human baby in its mother's womb. unfortunately, democrats outright deny the science and spin false narratives to avoid one unmistakable effect. unborn babies are human beings and they deserve the right to life. thankfully, the american people did not support the mike krant'' radical legislation like hr to 96. -- democrats' radical legislation like hr 296. this is a radical position that is so extreme at putting the democrats on poor -- on par with dictatorships like north karina -- north korea and china. poland conducted after the dobbs decision found that 72% of americans, including 75% of women oppose abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy. that is why republicans are fighting for the will of the american people. let's call this hearing today what it really is, nothing other than a desperate political ploy. it is a ploy to distract the american people from issues they are facing like skyrocketing inflation, skyrocketing crime, the border crisis, students' learning loss from school closures, the fentanyl crisis, and so on. the hearing today is a ploy to distract from that but also an attempt to continue fear mongering against policies and to distract what this issue of abortion versus life is about. yet democrats continue to distract from the reality that they have created the american people across this country are suffering from. fortunately, this political ploy will join a long list of democrat failures. it is time today in this hearing to stop denying science. unborn children are human beings. they deserve the right to live. i yield back, thank you. rep. maloney: we will introduce our witnesses. first we will hear from kelsey lee, then dr. verma. a fellow from the positions for reproductive health. then we will hear from dr. kumar . finally, we will hear from jocelyn thrive, president of the national partnership for women and families. the witnesses will be unneeded so we may swear you in. -- an muted so we may swear you in. do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, so help? you god? ? the record reflect that they answered in the affirmative. thank you. your written statements will be made part of the permit part of congress. miss lee, you are recognized for your testimony. >> thank you, chairwoman maloney and members of the committee for inviting me to speak with you today. my name is kelsey lee and i came from pittsburgh to tell you about the portion that i had. 22 weeks into a wanted pregnancy. i had baby names on the shortlist, a pinterest board full of ideas on how my two children, my three-year-old and my future baby, could share a room in our closing -- because he has. at every appointment, it seemed that my pregnancy was healthy. but when i saw him on ultrasound for the first time at 20 weeks, six days into my pregnancy, what i saw was not compatible with life as i define it. healthy, quality, free of suffering. he was not moving. his limbs and neck were deformed. his umbilical cord had a structural anomaly. if my pregnancy continued, he likely would not have had the ability to swallow. he may not have been able to breathe and he would have broken during delivery, no matter the method. so i did what i knew was right for my son, myself, and my family, and chose to end my pregnancy. i could not and would not carry my son for four more months to give birth to him knowing that his life would be filled with pain and suffering. the current law allows abortion 20 weeks into pregnancy, so i was able to access abortion care within the legal window and at a hospital 10 minutes from my home. just six weeks later while i was still grieving and healing, i stood before cameras and pled with the pennsylvania legislature not to pass a bill that would ban abortion at 20 weeks, a bill that would have banned my abortion and stripped me of my privacy in my most vulnerable moments. we stopped that legislation in its tracks a year later when the bill came up again. i went from office to office in harrisburg asking lawmakers to support people like me. enough lawmakers listened and understood the gravity of their responsibility that we stop the bill from becoming the law. pennsylvania's abortion laws are far from perfect. among the demeaning questions, i was subjected to, and offer to mail me a week by week fetal development guide. you can imagine how difficult that was. but because lawmakers listened to their constituents, in this new reality, pennsylvania is a beacon for people from other states. i now work at allegheny reproductive health center where we provide crowd abortion care. i help patients find the resources they need. the calls i field on a given day are from people in different states because the abortion bands across this country cannot and will not stop people from needing an abortion. no one has to convince me or anyone else at our clinic of their worthiness of an abortion. they each have the right to control their own body. never, not a once in my years of advocating for abortion access, have a talk to someone who deserved their abortion less than i did. the people who you represent do not want abortion to be a legal. your constituents are mothers like me, young people with dreams, and we are all citizens who should be allowed to make our own decisions about our health, our bodies, and our futures. in this moment, where u.s. lawmakers have been given the green light to take away our power of our most personal decisions, i want to close by asking you this question. who are you going to be? will you sit in judgment of people who are pregnant without knowing them or their circumstances? or will you listen to me, to us, and be the compassion that our country desperately needs right now? thank you. rep. maloney: thank you very much. dr. verma, you are now recognized for your testimony. >> thank you. good morning chairwoman maloney, ranking member kolmar come and distinguish members of the committee. i am a board-certified fellowship trained gynecologist who provides full reproductive health care. i am part of a network of physicians across the country working to improve access to comprehensive reproductive health care. i am also a proud southerner. i was born and raised in north carolina and currently provide care in georgia. growing up, i saw firsthand the devastating impact of restrictions on contraception and abortion care in the lives of real people. my friends, family, and people in my community. there are the reason i am here before you today. i became a doctor and ob/gyn because of my drive to take care of people without judgment throughout the course of their lives regardless of their health care needs. for me, that commitment includes talking people through their first pap smears, delivering their babies, and supporting them as they decide to continue or and their pregnancy. there i am caring for someone who is ready to build a family, already parenting, or focused on their education and career, all of my patients have something in common. they are making thoughtful decisions about their health and well-being and deserve high-quality care, including abortion care, regardless of who they are or where they live. the supreme court's decision to overturn constitutional right to abortion care has wreaked havoc across the country, including georgia, as it has enacted severe abortion bands and restrictions. i am terrified for my community in georgia where most abortions have been banned very early in pregnancy at approximately six weeks. this is before some people know they are pregnant and long before many of my patients deceive diagnoses of dangerous medical conditions or fetal anomalies that complicate their presidencies -- pregnancies and endanger the health. because the law is not based in medicine or science, i'm forced to turn away patients. imagine looking someone in the eye and saying, i have all of the tools to help you, but our state's politicians have told me i cannot. imagine having to tell someone, you are sick but not sick enough to receive care in our state based on our laws' narrow exceptions. as a doctor in georgia, i am being forced to grapple with these impossible situations more and more. these directly violate the medical expertise i gave through years of training and the oh thigh took -- oath i took. i have seen how dramatically the care that i provide to people and the people are able to receive very based on the laws of the states. in the states where i do not have to deal with medically unnecessary restrictions on abortion access, i can focus on doing what i am trained to do, providing safe and evidence-based care. i understand abortion care can be, health care and life can be. but i am here today to tell you that abortion is necessary, compassionate, essential health care. it should not be singled out for exclusion or have additional financial burdens placed upon it. the retractions -- restrictions on abortion care have long reaching consequences, deepening inequities and worsening health outcomes. when an abortion is difficult to access, hump. -- access, complicated health outcomes can happen. this includes harming the over will health and well-being of people across the country. as a provider of comprehensive reproductive health care, i know people are capable of making complex and thoughtful decisions about their health. despite the supreme court's decision and efforts by politicians to create an unpatched -- i am unwavering in my commitment to support those peoples in my home and community in whatever way i can. it should not be this way. people should be able to get care in their own communities in a manner best for them with people they trust. i urge you to listen to the story of people who provided access abortion care. i hope these stories help you understand that abortion care is not an isolated political issue and to see how profoundly the restrictions on abortion access harm our communities. thank you for having me and i look forward to your questions. rep. maloney: thank you. our next speaker, you are recognized. >> thank you. chair maloney, ranking member:, and members of the committee, thank you. i am a board-certified gynecologist pit i have over 30 years of experience with teaching health policy and global health. in my clinical career, i focused on providing abstract trick care. for women with limited access to care in such places like rural south carolina, native american reservations, as well as other countries. i would like to discuss -- abortion harms. the dobbs decision which returns the decision-making back to the states provides the opportunity to limit the harm to unborn human beings, but abortion not only poses risks to the mother. it is always lethal to the unborn child. it is my opinion that abortion is not health care. abortion is intended to terminate unexpected pregnancy and does not result in a live birth. the goal of abortion is to kill the embryo, which is a human being. there are different types of health care and abortion either prevents or treats any disease that has instead its goal of the death of a human being. it is not health care for the mother or her fetus. the majority of ob/gyn's do not do abortions. in a 2018 survey, only a 7% of practice ob/gyn's performed abortions. in another survey in 2019, 23% of ob/gyn's performed abortions, but only 30% performed fewer than 30 abortions per year. i contact about the fact that clinicians caring for women have two patients, the woman and the unborn child. many fetal conditions can be treated in utero through surgery and also science shows that the unborn child is able to feel pain much earlier than previously thought. in addition to that, anesthesia is provided at 15 weeks to ameliorate the pain from these procedures. i would also like to discuss the ep demonology of abortion -- epidemiology of abortion. the collection of data is extremely flawed. in 2019, the cdc's report stated that because the reporting requirements very, the cdc is unable to record the total number of abortions performed in the u.s. this problem is not just limited to the number of abortions but to abortion publications. for many year, there has been -- this has been used to defend the rights to abortion. because the incompleteness of data is not possible to make the decision with any certainty. there are some studies that suggest that abortion-related mortality is equal to or almost equal to maternal mortality when abortion is conducted at later stages. i would like to briefly mention that fetal heartbeat is a useful measure of fetal health. fetal health -- the point i would like to make is that the heartbeat is there whether we detect it or not. we are simply observing the heartbeat as an important part of assessing fetal health. studies show that the presence of a heartbeat at 10 weeks is associated with a greater than 90% likelihood that the pregnancy will carry to term. i would like to discuss racial disparities. since roe v. wade, approximately 17 million african-americans have been aborted in the u.s. those abortions mean not only the death of the 17 million black people that have been born, in addition there are substantial racial disparities to abortion and its complications. black women only comprise 12 to 14% of the total population. these statistics are likely underestimates. more than one third of second trimester abortions are performed in black women. it seems to me to be difficult to reconcile the fact that black women have the highest rates of mortality and at the same time, both cannot be true. thank you very much. rep. maloney: dr. kumnari, you are now recognized. >> your microphone. >> chairwoman maloney, thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee today. i grew up in texas where my family moved when i was 10. i know what it is like to be undocumented, a person of color, gay, and governed by white supremacist laws. i set out to become a doctor because i believe everyone deserves quality health care. i have witnessed the steady erosion of our rights and freedoms at the hands of antiabortion rights politicians. less than -- the supreme court overturned roe v. wade, allowing states like texas to completely outlaw abortion. america's effectively two countries. one where people control their bali -- bodies and the other where the politicians decide for them. unlike the people who passed abortion bans or uphold them in court, i have to face those who are harmed. i'll have to look at my patients in their high -- i and tell them i am not legally allowed to take care of them. these are people with real lives and real stories. it is an honor and privilege to hear them. as lawmakers, it is your obligation to deal with the devastating constitute -- consequences for your constituents. before roe was overturned when we were still providing abortion care, i saw a patient who was afraid that her abortion -- abusive partner would find out she was pregnant. she thought she would have time to have an abortion, but she didn't. going out of state was not possible. she was sentenced by the state to carry out her pregnancy to term and likely entered into more abuse. these stories are endless. rape, incest, young girls still learning about their bodies, college students with their whole lives ahead of them, trans folks who thought they couldn't get pregnant, people with wanted pregnancies who had something that went wrong, on and on. over and over again, we are forced to violate our conscience and training to turn away patients who need us. there is nothing more inhumane or in ethical than having to deny people the health care they seek in the day -- in their time of need. texas has three overlapping abortion bands that carry severe punishments for providers like me, including life in prison unless it is a medical emergency , something that the law inadequately fails to define. doctors have to wait to intervene. people hurting being denied the care that they need. because they were not sick enough yet. all this is in a state with extremely high maternal mortality rates, especially for black women who are three times more likely to die during childbirth. abortion bands are inherently racist, classist, and part of the white supremacy agenda. we do not have to imagine a world where people are denied essential medical care. it is here and we have to be ashamed. you are all in a position to act. please be bold and do something. act like people's lives depend on you, because they do. i will not stop fighting for the rights of my patients to control their own body and for my ability to provide them the best medical care they can. i will show them the respect their government has denied them. thank you. rep. maloney: now we will hear from ms. fry. >> thank you chairwoman maloney and congresswoman grothman and all the members of the committee. i am grateful for the chance to be with you today. before i start, i want to say to you, madam chair, that i want to express my appreciation to you on behalf of the partnership, your legacy that you have built over the years, ones that we have depended on. you have been a powerful voice for women's rights and i am sure you will continue to do so through the future. the national partnership strives to advance health care, civil rights, and economic justice for women and families in america. our mission is to ensure that women and people of all genders in a society free of barriers, in a society in which we can all reach our full potential. we believe every person should be able to enjoy the fundamental human right to live with dignity and autonomy, to choose the course of their own destiny. this is particularly true for women. women's progress has been linked with the freedom to control our own bodies and decide for ourselves when or if to start a family, which is one of life's most personal choices. the decision to have a child will impact everyone's -- every aspect of someone's life. access to abortion has been pivotal for women and for all of those who give birth to secure their own health and take charge of their own lives. the evidence is clear and it is compelling. research consistently proves restricting abortion access undermines the health, safety, and well-being of those who are pregnant. women who give birth after being denied abortions are more likely to endure life-threatening complications during and after pregnancy. already, the dubious distinction of one of the worst records of maternal health in the developed world. a national abortion ban could increase our maternal maternity rate -- internal mortality rate by 28%, but essentially -- especially for black and indigenous women. for the restraints on comprehensive reproductive health care will only make this crisis worse. limiting reproductive freedom poses economic hardships as well. women who are denied abortions are more likely to amass debt, fall into poverty, and suffer an eviction. roe v. wade had a landmark victory because it established a firm foundation upon which women and all people could rely on. it made clear that the right to privacy afforded essential protections, which placed critical health decisions in the hands of the people most affected, not in the hands of politicians or judges. dubbs v jackson eliminated this fundamental right, which the people have depended on for decades, creating chaos in too many communities. as of today, 26 states have enacted or are likely to enact partial or complete bands on abortion. the national partnership estimates that these would restrict the freedom of 36 million women of reproductive age. this includes 15 million women of color, nearly 13 million women who are economically insecure. these bands bans harm the communities who already face the steepest hurdles in accessing health care. people with the lowest incomes and people of color, especially black and indigenous people, often face the harshest health risks and are likely to die from causes elated to pregnancy. to make matters worse, the states who pass these abortion laws are the same places where families have the hardest time securing affordable health care, child care, and paid family leave. this amidst other restrictive laws like those that make it harder to vote. this further deepens the inequities confronting black and brown people. we must ensure that access to comprehensive quality reproductive health care is available to every person. we must meet this moment with the urgency it deserves. a national abortion ban would set women back and deny them the freedom to control their own bodies and put the lives of those who are pregnant at the enormous risk. the access to abortion is a human right, fundamental to women's equality, and the opportunity for women to participate in our society. i appreciate the chance to speak with you today. i look forward to answering your questions. rep. maloney: thank you for your testimony. i thank all of the panelists. i now recognize myself for questions. the follow-up of roe v. wade was a culmination of a decades long effort by republican politicians and right-wing judges to to go with a constitutional right to abortion that has been recognized for half a century in this country. earlier this month, senator lindsey graham introduced a nationwide criminal ban on abortion, one that would imprison doctors and nurses who perform abortions. dr. kumar, you have treated patients in texas where the rights to have an abortion was taken away from women for more than a year ago by a law called sp eight. from what you have seen on the ground in texas, what what a national abortion ban mean for patients who need abortion care throughout our country? dr. kumar: thank you. a national ban would be concerning. it has been little over a year in texas since we have had a band close to six weeks, and it lasted for 10 months until we had an outright ban. people continue to find or need abortion care and we would continue to have people coming up to our clinic asking us for care. six weeks is a difficult time period to get into care. most people do not even know they are pregnant at that point, but what i find with all bans on abortion is that they are arbitrary. they are telling me exactly why they cannot continue that pregnancy and they do not care if they are 15 or 16 weeks. they know that they need care and they will go to whatever links they can to get that care and that is what we saw. many people left texas to get the care they needed. rep. maloney: ms. leigh, you had the choice to make an abortion under heartbreaking circumstances and you used your judgment to decide what was best for you and your family. what would he say to the republican politicians in washington who think -- you say to the republican politicians in washington who think they know better than you and your family? ms. leigh: i like to remind people that as americans, we all have the core value of self-determination, bodily autonomy, and to determine our futures for ourselves and our families. i would like to grant people on that because we all want that for ourselves. i was privileged enough to have that and that is what i want for anyone seeking an abortion in this country. i made the right choice that i could, just like you would want to do if it was yourself, a family member, or a loved one. rep. maloney: how does it make you feel that politicians are inserting themselves into what is your most personal and painful decisions you have ever made? ms. leigh: the hardest day of my life was having my ultrasound with my son and finding out that what i thought was a healthy pregnancy was not. the second hardest day of my life was finding out that the pennsylvania legislature was fast tracking a 20 week ban so that any hearing from dr. wood ban abortion after 20 meet -- doctors would ban abortion after 20 weeks. i would have been legislated about without a single patient ever having being asked or physicians or leading groups on these things. it is unthinkable. we do not do this on any other issue. we need to stop doing it on abortion. abortion seekers are moral people and abortion providers are my heroes. we do not want the government in our body and in our private decisions. rep. maloney: thank you for your bravery and coming before the committee today. my republican colleagues believe that politicians in washington should have the power to force a woman in kentucky, new york, arizona, pennsylvania, any state in our country to give birth even if the fetus is incompatible with life, as your fetus was. they do not trust women to make the best decisions for themselves, their families, for their health care, for their lives. their endgame is a nationwide abortion ban that will rip away freedoms from millions of women and put our nation's health care providers at risk of imprisonment. and they will stop at nothing to pass it. we must not let them have their way. i want to thank all of the witnesses for being here and with that, i recognize the gentlelady from north carolina, representative fox. rep. foxx: thank you, madam chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for being here. dr. wubbenhorst, thank you for your service and working during the trump administration. it is great to have fellow north carolinians here. democrats have the distinction of holding a strange decision on abortion today. twice during the 117th congress, nearly every single democrat voted in favor of the so-called women's health protection act, which should be called the abortion on demand until birth act. this reveals their agenda for the united states. abortion on demand until birth in every state. in your understanding, would this bill even abolish laws that prevented aborting a baby just because of the sex of the baby? dr. wubbenhorst: thank you congresswoman. this would go very far towards abolishing any protective laws for disabled fetuses. rep. foxx: it would be protecting those babies that have down syndrome or because of their sex, correct? dr. wubbenhorst: the law would be. rep. foxx: this extreme bill that women's health protection act would place the united states back in the company of countries such as china and north korea? dr. wubbenhorst: that is correct. rep. foxx: and the women's health at -- act would not protect babies being aborted because of their sex? dr. wubbenhorst: yes, and that is an important point. if we look at the coercive abortion practices in countries such as china and countries in south saharan africa, i think that is an important consideration. rep. foxx: thank you for giving an example of other countries and what company that puts us in. university poll from june 2022 showed that 97 percent of americans believe there should be some legal limits on abortion. is that correct? dr. wubbenhorst: yes. rep. foxx: is it also correct that this poll shows that a majority of democrats in this poll supported protections for the unborn after 15 weeks? dr. wubbenhorst: yes. rep. foxx: i believe this constitutes a majority of all americans. it seems to me it is the democrats who hold the extreme positions on abortions and they hold the views contrary to the will of most americans. i find it interesting that there are people who say this is an act of self-determination. it is one thing to be determining what happens in your own body. it is another thing to be determining the life of an unborn child that you are carrying. i am often reminded of the merchant of venice where in the merchant of venice, there was a deal made that if a man could not pay his debt, he would give a pound of his flesh. in court, the defense lawyer said, you may have your pound of flesh, but you may not take a drop of blood. it seems to me that elective abortion should be compared to that because you may be self determining for your body, but what are you doing to the child in your own body? dr. wubbenhorst, is there anything you would like to respond to today? dr. wubbenhorst: abortion is not health care, as i said earlier. it is important to point out there is no data to assert -- supports the assertion that increasing rates of abortion or abortion at all has an effect on maternal mortality. you have to reconcile the effect that women have the highest rates of maternal mortality and the highest rates of abortion, and both of those cannot be true. i would also like to add to that the questions regarding miscarriage and care and a topic pregnancy care is often misrepresented in media. miscarriage is not an abortion, treatment of any topic pregnancy is not an abortion. rep. foxx: thank you and i yield back. rep. maloney: we now recognize mr. lyncher. >> thank you, madam chair. in the face of charges of record to some, it is important to recognize that since roe v. wade had been cited in more than 4500 cases as president -- precedent for privacy and other rights as well, including more than 140 supreme court cases, whether 2600 federal court cases. and for nearly 50 years, roe has stood as the law of the land. threatening the fundamental right of a woman to make decisions about her reproductive rights and health, free of governmental interference and the legitimate interference of the state. it is important to note as well that roe also affirmed and solidified the broader individual right to privacy of every american as derived from the due process clause of the 40th amendment. according to the court, this constitution guaranteed rights to privacy includes personal rights that can be deemed fundamental are implicit in the concept of liberty. unfortunately today, we have 15 states that ban abortion and in my mind, i cannot recall a moment in our country's history other than prior to the civil war where people of this country had to flee their home states to go to another state in order to have their rights recognized. that is because of slavery when human beings had to flee their home state in order to have their rights as human beings and as people recognized in other states that would do so. right now, we have a situation where women have to flee their states and go to another safe harbor in order to have their health needs addressed and therefore rights as citizens recognized. that in itself is telling. that is telling. what is troubling as well here is that in congress, congressional republicans have introduced at least five bills that would ban abortion nationwide and limit abortions based on the methods. congressional republicans have also introduced four bills targeting a person's ability to travel to obtain an abortion. that in itself, that travel would also be made illegal. ms. frye, you represent a national organization and you have a national perspective on how this is happening. can you shed some light on the situation that is happening from state to state and what impact this is having on women who happen to be unfortunately living in jurisdictions where the state legislature has banned abortion and what they are dealing with? ms. frye: thank you for the question. the short answer is that it has been chaotic for people on the ground. your point is well taken that this is what happens when you eliminate a fundamental right that is rooted in the constitution and you decide that anything goes and any state can do whatever they want. it is unsettling and unnerving for people, and it is devastating to not have access to the protections of the constitution that they rightly deserve and that people have depended on for years and what we have seen across the country is described. people moving from state to state to get basic health care and being able to make the decisions that make sense for them. this is unacceptable. we can do better. rep. lynch: as an attorney, if the relationship between a woman and her doctor is not within that sphere of privacy, can you think of any other right that might be? ms. frye: i think that is the concern, is that clearly, that relationship should be within the right to privacy, that the court recognized the right to privacy before roe. it related to contraception, things like access to lgbtq rights. it is extensive, the ability for people to be able to make personal choices and decisions about themselves is critical, so this is devastating for folks. rep. lynch: my time is expired. thank you. rep. maloney: i grant you additional time as it went over a little bit. >> thank you for coming to the belly of the beast, dr. wubbenhorst. i am from wisconsin. there was a lot past banning abortion in wisconsin until roe. the idea that there is a constitutional right to abortion is a show. up until 1993, there were only two or three states that had widespread abortions. we are in an era where judges go to law school and find ways to get around to the constitution, but obviously, this is not a constitutional right. when i look around the world, the united states under a bill that was recently pressed recently pressed by the house of representatives would make abortion illegal -- or legal all the way until birth. when i look around the world that other civilized countries, we see limits on that. sweden, 18 weeks. it seems that the consensus is normally 12 or 10 weeks. a variety of european countries. i believe there are still many who used to be referred to as third world countries in which abortion is still legal and i have heard complaints from representatives of those countries that they have the united states throwing around their weight and forcing them to change their laws to their will, the ugly american. could you indicate -- there are only two countries or three countries that have no restrictions. north korea, the most repressive countries in the world, red china. it is not just about the previous leaders that had killing temperaments and sadly under justin trudeau, canada. what do you think these other countries would think of not allowing abortion past 10 or 12 weeks? dr. wubbenhorst: thank you, mr. grothman, for the opportunity to speak. in most european countries, there is a recognition that the risk of abortion increased dramatically until the second trimester. they recognize that there is a need to abortion because there is a legislative procedure. there is a bit of data on this. there is specifically a study by colleagues from 2004 that the risk of death from abortion increased expansion by 38 percent for every additional -- stationed. and in some countries that have slightly later restrictions on abortion, one of their rationales is that they do not want to be allowing abortion anywhere near viability. the reason for that is interesting. the standards of viability are constantly being pushed back, currently around 21 weeks. they said if a pregnancy is misstated or takes some time to have an abortion, that they are going to be up against that viability standard. beyond that, this is simply a recognition that second trimester abortions are wrong and i do think that if you look at the history of abortion, regimes that allow later stage abortions are tied with human rights abuses. i appreciate your statement about countries being strong-armed. this was an issue in countries as in south asia because in those countries, the culture is very much pro-life. they do not want abortion. i think that is an important point related to that. rep. grothman: we should be ashamed of america that we use our great reputation to muscle countries in africa and latin america to become pro-abortion. what percent of ob/gyn's perform abortions? they have a hard time sometimes fighting doctors to do this. dr. wubbenhorst: i alluded to some of the data earlier. it is interesting that the number of ob/gyn's willing to do abortions has declined dramatically. about 7% for ob/gyn's and 23% for all other practitioners. inherently, people feel that abortion is morally wrong and they will not perform it. rep. grothman: as an obstetrician, the mother and -- rep. maloney: the time has expired and you may answer one more question. rep. grothman: i will go to the website of obstetricians and gynecologists. rep. maloney: the gentleman from virginia is recognized for five minutes. >> one does not know where to begin as we speak, women all over iran are protesting against the oppression of their rights under the regime of the ayatollah. and here we are, debating how much we should suppress women's rights. what an irony. when we adopted the bill of rights, we did not make a moral statement to the first amendment. the fact that i believe a broad freedom of speech does not mean i approve of every form of speech. it is not a moral statement. it is a legal statement that recognizes a society and which threatens the complex and it is not our role to the judge to restrict. the right of the american people, including more than half of women, is complicated. it is not as simple as you would have us believe, dr. wubbenhorst. and for you to say that this is not a health care issue is an astounding statement. many practitioners who in states who have banned abortions, many of them no longer wanting to serve in those states because they are in jeopardy of choosing to provide the health care for their patients and what their lawyers are telling them is or is not legal. this is not theoretical. in south carolina, a 19-year-old came to the emergency room after her water broke. the hospital attorneys told me that the doctors are legally at risk if they extracted this fetus and there was a 15% chance that she would lose the uterus and then she would possibly die. in nebraska, a woman's water broke before the fetus felt lungs -- developed lungs. despite her desire to end the pregnancy, the doctor said he had no choice but to deliver the fetus. 15 minutes after that delivery, both parents were in deep morning -- mourning. i ask people to pay attention to this video of miss weller from texas. if you could play the video. [video clip] >> when i became pregnant, i never imagined a situation. my water broke and once we got to the er, it was clear that our daughter would not survive the pregnancy. either terminate the pregnancy or wait at home and wait for the infection to worsen. our terrible experience was exaggerated. fearing legal backlash, our hospital refused our doctor to perform a medically necessary abortion and instead discharged us, instructing us to return after my infection worsened. in the coming days, i had amniotic fluid draining from my body, the constant reminder of my baby's impending death. my life was not in immediate enough danger to allow for our doctors to perform a medically necessary procedure. [end video clip] rep. connolly: thank you. doctor, are these examples i gave, are they not common? dr. verma: thank you for that question. we are commonly seeing these situations come update after day. rep. connolly: it is some -- it is a simple termination of life. dr. verma: we often see these situations where we need to provide this care to protect the health and well-being of patients. rep. connolly: and as an ob/gyn, is this a health care issue? dr. verma: absolutely, and that is the overwhelming consensus of the medical community, including the american board of ob/gyn's that certifies all of the ob/gyn's at this table. this is the overwhelming consensus that the scientific medical community is that abortion is health care. rep. connolly: thank you and i yield back. rep. maloney: the gentleman is now recognized. >> i will contend that the primary patient in abortion is the baby. and the harm done to the baby is permanent, it is death. dr. wubbenhorst, pro-abortionist want to convince the public that in the abortion debate, we are talking about anything but a human life. stacey abrams said there is no such thing as a heartbeat at six weeks. it is a manufactured sound that men have the right to take a woman's control of her body away from her. how do you respond to that? dr. wubbenhorst: thank you for the question. i would respond to that by saying that as i mentioned a bit ago, there is a fetal heartbeat whether we hear it or not and we use instruments to amplify that sound. the fetal heartbeat is detectable initially as a twinkling typically between as early as five weeks. we know that many of the quickset there is no question that the fetal heart beat is random construction of cells. the coordinated movements commented --, it is documented in radiology and stature call. the question on whether this is manufactured, as i said the fetal heart is beating early in pregnancy. the other point i think is important is we rely on fetal heart rate and presence or absence of heartbeat to assess fetal health and provide reassurance appearance. when the most expect -- exciting things is hearing the baby's heart. >> i would think the most doctors involved in this process from one-way understand the baby is a patient. the claimant the overwhelming -- claim that the consensus is abortion's health care. would you agree. as i said, especially disagree with assertions to the contrary. simply because internists do not perform abortions and most gynecologist do not perform abortions. if abortion was essential why is it that greater than 85% do not do it? >> that was the point i was hoping you would ring out. that does not sound like consensus. it sounds more like misinformation to pretend that consensus of doctors believe that abortion is health care. another deceptive tactic by a pro-abortion is to say abortion restrictions will deprive women of treatments for miscarriage and act topic pregnancies. how do you respond? >> miscarriage treatment is not an abortion. abortion is a procedure with -- which ends a pregnancy that is living. a miscarriage is typically -- a miscarriage has occurred whether there is been a demised work -- pete is, therefore you are not proceeding with the intent to kill or take human life. for ectopic pregnancy, which is extra uterine or in parts of the uterus and the fallopian tubes or body. these are not intended to can result in devastating consequences. performing a procedure or arrangement of shredding magic -- medication to terminate her pregnancy is not an abortion. >> thank you. final question. pro-abortionist claimed that abortion is necessary for women due to high range of maternal mortality. would you agree with that? >> it is not true. based on science. there are no studies that show increase in rates of abortion, decrease mortality. until recently, countries that were where abortion was criminalized. i'm thinking of chile and ireland and cyprus had the lowest rates of maternal mortality. for several years ireland had zero maternal motoric -- mortality when abortion was illegal. >> i found your written statement to be fascinating and the research that you provided was incredible. i think you very much. i yelled back. >> the gentleman yields back. mr. raskin is recognized for five minutes. >> i heard our gop colleagues intentionally with the ranking member that fetuses are human beings and deserve the right to life. the necessary implication is the physician -- the position of antiabortion is there should be a total ban on abortion rights in america. without exceptions for rape or incest. as they point out, the fetus is human, even if it is conceived from a rape of a 13-year-old girl or an incestuous rape of a teenager. the most consistent republicans like the governor pennsylvania said women should be charged with murder for having an abortion at 10 weeks. which is what the pennsylvania republican candidate said. they have grown more reticent and evasive about voicing their determination to ban all abortions everywhere in the country since the people of kansas by 20 points massively repudiated the dangerous extremism of the republican position. we do not hear as much of the rhetoric of abortion is murder and women are murderers if they have an abortion. this is worse than the holocaust . the normal fare of the antiabortion movement. it seems like the cat has the tongue now they struck the rock and to the rock is the women of america who are standing up for their freedom as first-class citizens of the united states of america. do not be deceived by their newfound silence and evasiveness. look at what is happening in america. from 2017 to 2021 gop legislatures announced 127 loss restricting abortions. and i'll rights of the one million american women. categorical abortion bands are in effect in 15 states. since 2000 21, republicans have introduced 52 bills to be had or reduce abortions, including 16 calling for criminal prosecution of doctors, nurses and for targeting a woman's ability to travel across state lines. for purpose of accessing health care and the destination jurisdiction. that is all they have been able to do so far. the proposal to an nationwide white strip reproductive freedom from 64 million american women. let's look at a map of where we are now. in terms of the ability to take abortion rights away. if you put up that map. if you look at the dark red, the states where the dangerous extremists and republican party who are running party have got away they have been able to completely ban women's rights. what would happen if senator rand paul and alex muniz legislation which is endorsed by the republican caucus to pass? they were divine personhood at conception, banning all abortion and birth control. such as iud. what would happen is that second map. if you put up the . abortion would be banned all over america. ms. fry -- dr. verma, if they pass this legislation and enact bands on abortion. what will be the effect on the health care provided to american women? >> thank you for that question. we are orienting a devastating health care crisis, and it is hard to imagine how much worse things will get in the setting of a national abortion ban. i have patients that seek abortion for all kinds of different reasons. we heard a beautiful story of people that are diagnosed with terrible fetal anomalies and seek abortion. out of love for that future child in pregnancy. cap people diagnosed with terrible medical conditions and seek abortion for all kinds of reasons. >> these state legislatures and busybody theocrat's in congress who think they know better than the women are going to serve that private medical decision for women and families. dr. frye, what would have been made for the social and economic status of women in america? will they be equal citizens under a situation? >> they will not because they do not have the ability to control their bodies and futures what we know is access to abortion has been critical in the ability of women to make decisions about their lives, and decide when they want to have a family and ensure their own economic stability and security. >> adam chair, let's not go down the road of saudi arabia and iran. >> the gentleman time has expired. the gentleman from pennsylvania is recognized. >> let's be clear about what today's hearing is about. it is not about advocating for the unborn or women. it is an attempt by democrats to justify the radical pro-abortion agenda and efforts to establish taxpayer-funded abortion. i am not exaggerating. democrats passed legislation last year that would allow for unrestricted access to abortions to take place up until a baby is born. they do sue under the guise of hearings like this, being held using examining harm to patients from abortion restrictions. a threat of a national abortion ban. to perpetrate fear and achieve their agenda. how many times have we heard democrats say to trust the signs. until it has to do with acknowledging an unborn baby is a life? i heard about health care, and dr. -- dr. wubbenhorst, if there were two lights going into a facility for medical care and only one comes out. is that successful? >> thank you for your question. i would say it is not successful. >> that is what happens. you have to lives go into this setting, they have what democrats are calling a medical procedure, but only one comes out. i do not call that success and i do not think it is radical to defense like drug that is in our founding to mock -- documents. you cannot have pursuit of happiness if you're not born. life. dr. wubbenhorst, after conception what can you tell us about the development of an unborn baby at some milestones 10 weeks. what other milestones of the baby after conception? dr. wubbenhorst: there are other milestones early, post fertilization. at the time of fertilization there is a spark that is submitted and that cool -- question of whether the embryo, side goat, is human is reflected in -- zygote at this individual has human dna. it came from human parents. subsequently the zygote develops into a blastocyst that implants which is accompanied by the development of a placenta and when the is released. you are very early milestones, the primordial sons develop the heart as early as four weeks. even before that, the embryo is organizing themselves into different layers. different cell layers which will give rise to different types of tissues. by about six to seven weeks, the central nervous system is in development, the spinal cord begins to develop fingerprints are starting to form at nine weeks. the fetal brain has begun eeg activity can be detected at nine weeks or earlier. you have a number of these processes that are occurring in early stages of pregnancy, around the time these unborn children are aborted. we know, i just want to emphasize, the fetus is a human being. it is not a dog or a salamander. it is a human being. it is human being that is achieving the completed form of the adult. >> what point can unborn baby feel pain? how may weeks after conception? >> there is evidence that by 15 weeks -- i do not want to get too technical. >> at 15 weeks would be a point where they start to feel pain? >> they can feel that 15 weeks? >> there is evidence that pain is subjective, but there is evidence that instructions -- structures that can perceive pain are in place. this is recent research. used to think they were not in place until 24 weeks. they are present earlier. the thalamus, the peripheral nervous system and early stages of the cortex. >> we tend to evolve through our cash throughout our life. i remember when i was in ninth grade biology. i remember our teacher writing on the board saying's purplish egg equals baby. that is simply. i think when we are talking in the united states, depriving life. if one not protect someone's life or anything else. i think it starts and what we recognize as life at conception. >> the gentlewoman from district of columbia is recognized. >> thank you madame chair for this important hearing. after a decade of claiming that questions of whether abortion is should be left to the states, republicans reveal their true intentions of nationwide abortion ban. it is unsurprising that republicans are seeking to impose a federal and -- ban that would over -- override state abortion laws. they sometimes get defeated and overturning the abortion laws and district of columbia. they previously tried to an abortion after 20 weeks in the district, and since 1988 with few exceptions congress prohibited d.c. from using its local funds on abortions. if republicans do not six said -- succeed with the national abortion ban, they will try to ban abortion in d.c.. how will federal abortion bands override state initiatives to protect and enshrine abortion rights and access? >> thank you for the question. i think the challenge is those abortion bands -- bands would be devastating for folks who need access to quality reproductive health care. we know when people do not have access to abortion. they have limited ability to control their futures and economic lives. we know that studies, ample research around poor economic outcomes, poor health cap -- outcomes and not only for women and people who give birth themselves, but their children. the harm is far-reaching, but most importantly i think it is the impact on denying women and anybody who gives birth the ability to make the health decisions that make sense for them. that harm is overwhelming for a lot of people. >> republicans in congress spoke of a federal ban as early as six weeks into pregnancy. as we heard through this hearing, many people do not experience pregnancy complications until they are further along. miss, what would happen to you if a second trimester abortion ban had been in place at the time of her pregnancy? >> thank you for the question. as i said, i do not have to imagine hard. pennsylvania tried to do that a few weeks after my own abortion. when i was still grieving my son . and physical healing for my procedure. you make a great point about fetal anomalies often not being detected until 20 weeks. i am not a clinician, and dr. vermont and kumar can speak to that. i do know the counseling i received about if i wanted to get pregnant again and try again. what would we look for early on? i have to netted testing done and it was inconclusive because the vast majority of anomalies are not detectable by genetic testing. that does not change what my son's prognosis would have been. if i had chosen to have have another pregnancy, i may had one earlier ultrasound, but what we sell is not detectable until 18 or 20 weeks. even in a patient like myself, who we would get extra vigilance -- to jones because of my history. even amy, it would not been detected before 18 to 20 weeks. >> ms. fry, in addition to outright abortion ban, republicans would have 20 bills that would propose severe medically unnecessary restrictions to abortion. potentially nullifying abortion access in states that have active safeguard abortion rights. how would restrictions on abortion access at the federal level heard people in states where abortion is legal? >> i think it is across the country, the impact of denying people basic ability to make decisions about their health and well-being. that is what road did, it enabled folks to bypass individual state preferences and ensure every person had the ability to make those choices, and it was in the constitution. >> your time is expired. >> the gentleman from arizona is recognized for five minutes. >> i think the chair. the delegate from d.c. has been crabbing about various proposals by republicans to pass a national abortion law to supersede states laws. that is odd because that is what roe v. wade did, and today are embracing roe v. wade. the radical democrats on this committee just a year ago, voted in lockstep to pass the most radical abortion bill lifting any restrictions on abortion. that was the woman's health protection act. everybody, every democrat did in the house, except for one. senator claire. it failed in the senate. i say is interesting. the fact that you're saying wait a second, there are state louse that might conflict with what we believe. the new orthodoxy. that is exactly what roe v. wade did. i did not hear any republicans or conservatives say let's pack the court. you should hear it now. that is one of the articles i will submit for the record. to list democrats who call for packing the court because they do not like the dobbs decision. a minute ago the gentleman from maryland said let's not go down the way of saudi arabia and iran, apparently he would go down the way of china and north korea. that is what the bill he voted for did. took away all restrictions on abortion. that is pretty radical if you ask me. that is why he isn't brave to come to this committee. the chair and everybody and majority, in fact every witness but one agrees with that position. so the rees -- will person is a dr. wubbenhorst. coming to the belly the beast. by six weeks, medicine found a baby's heart is beating, and that is a milestone reflected by babycenter.com, which tells mothers you may hear the sound this week if you have an early ultrasound. recently, he a prominent democrat running for georgia say there is no such thing as a heartbeat at six weeks. it is a manufactured sound to convince people that men have the right to take control of a woman's body. that is from stacey abrams. i want to say that dr. wubbenhorst, i really appreciate what you said both written and oral. the fact we do not detect, does not mean it is not there. please expand. >> i think, especially regarding feudal heartbeat and any developmental milestone, the heartbeat is an indicator of fetal health and well-being and our reassurance to physicians. reassurance to physicians and patients that, similar to fetal pain. we cannot appreciate whether the fetus experiences pain. pain is subjective. we can observe that it exists based on the evidence. similarly with the fetal heartbeat, we know that based upon embryological studies, anatomical studies, we know the structures are present and people followed the development of fetal heart and not just in its primordial and primitive states, but as valves and chambers form and that pattern is laid down by about seven to eight weeks. it is at that point, in miniature. there are other anatomical differences. it is important to keep in mind being able to see and detect these phenomena, the fetal heartbeat, does not negate the fetus is a human being and the heartbeat is necessary. >> a prominent democrat speaking on a full -- former disgraced at cnn anchor forces mothers to carry on toxic thing inside them. would you tell us whether you believe that a fetus is a toxic thing? >> i do not believe that a fetus is toxic. women want to be pregnant. they want to have families. if you look at established on why women have abortion, it is because they have no one to support them. i talk to women repeatedly, especially with crisis pregnancy, and they said if i knew that someone would walk with me through this, i would not abort. that is somewhere between 60 and 80%. what you could look at is a lot of women who are choosing to abort is pill form abortion. >> my time expired. i have three documents for the record. when is called such thing as heartbeat from stacey abrams and dr. wubbenhorst amicus brief for the dobbs decision. >> without objection. the gentleman from california, mr., is recognized. >> it is very disappointing for spring court has put ideology and politics over the rule of law to take away fundamental freedoms and rights from women across america. it is not just me who is perplexed, frustrated, outraged the supreme court would take away rights in our country at this time. the american people were outraged and the supreme court ratings have never been that low. gallup had 40% approve. most americans understand what's going on. the understanding this was an ideological decision, and they disapprove in the supreme court is losing the respect of the american people at large. this women's rights, means right to choose and make decisions about their health care has affected different districts across america differently. my district we have gone out of our way with many leaders to stand up for women's decision to do what they think is appropriate with their bodies and reproductive decisions. ms. -- could you ruefully touch upon -- touch upon seeking reproductive care from contraception's 20 abortion may look for different for rural america than urban? >> yes congressman i think you are right that the experiences are different pending on if it is the 26 states that either bn or are likely to ban abortion. for folks in those states, and they have to look elsewhere. their economic costs they have to travel. they may not be able to get the prenatal care they need. many folks are already from the pandemic living in areas there have been health inequities for deck -- decades that led to the racial and ethnic disparities between black and brown women. they have no choice to go to other states. it is a cost. it is a situation that should not be the case. people should be able to access the health care need, and it should not be determined by zip code. >> thank you. can you ask -- expand on that and to talk about how a patient in community might be impacted if she cannot afford to travel to obtain abortion care? >> thanks for the question. i can speak. i only speak for myself, i am representing hundreds of patients i met in my years of advocating and storytelling. and now the patients i work with day in and day out. we do not have to guess in western pennsylvania. we are living it. we have two clinics that perform abortions in pittsburgh, and the next closest clinic is over three hours away. we are the closest clinic force percent of ohio. two thirds of the people i talked to are from ohio and west virginia who are traveling hours in each direction organizing rights and getting childcare because they live in urban centers. i talked for people from lummis, cincinnati and akron. >> i appreciate you mentioning columbus where they are opening up the new intel facility. the governor is there. the right to abortion as a fundamental human right. beyond that, it is impacting the ability to bring manufacturing jobs. intel and others are saying, we cannot recruit to get people to go there. we cannot people to go to -- have women come to work there given the uncertainty. can you talk about how this is hurting states that went manufacturing jobs and want an economy to do that? >> i can always become beast -- behalf of myself but what i can tell you is after living through my second pregnancy and sneaking -- needing an abortion and accessing that care. i want to live and to the whole country to be a place where they can access that. i can i'm -- imagine they do not want to settle where they do not have basic human rights. abortion is self-determination and it is our rights. >> the gentleman from mr. tax -- from texas is recognized. >> thank you. our founding documents guarantee is the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. you have to start with life into the guarantee of life. there has been a lot of discussion, especially since the dobbs decision and misinformation that has come out and fear mongering. i imagine, as we lead up to in election, unfortunately that happens. we heard things like this is the end of democracy and the sorts of things when with the dobbs decision was say that roe v. wade got it wrong and there is not a right to an abortion. which is an accurate statement. as far as the end of democracy, it returns the issue to the states where people can vote on it and have differing ideas and differing states. it is important we look at this right and we know more about it then in the 70's when roe v. wade was passed. it was called a clump of fish -- tissues. with development to note that is hardly the case. dr. wubbenhorst, can you speak to the technological advancements and what we know we did not know back then? >> it is one of the most amazing things since i have been involved in medicine since 1980. to see the explosion of knowledge and care that has gone on. specifically, not only are we able to visualize living fetuses with the degree of precision that was not available when i was training. ultrasounds were these huge bulky machines, and to their rosa greaney image that maybe i see it. now having 3d and 40 renderings where we see the expressions on these children's faces. i think is helped us to do it. >> the emotions. the stimuli. it has been fascinating showing that when the mother would eat certain foods within a. of time, the fetus would respond. we had an inkling of that because we would say the baby is not moving a lot and we gave them food and we can see that it in a different dimension. with -- have other advancements that allows to intervene when fetuses are ill or struggling, or have difficult medical problems. we are able to transfuse fetuses, surgery on the bladder, heart and lungs. it was previously lethal diagnosis. i think there is a huge opportunity that we have to recognize that opens up a whole new way of looking at the fetus. >> clinic the issues has been the messaging and what states think. there have been a lot of fear mongering about what is going on with states are doing and go after women. there is no state laws that do that. >> that is correct. >> i went to submit for the record as well couple statements that have been presented, one is from americans united for life. >> another one, part or the discussion has been to do with the reason that someone -- abortion because there is an issue during the pregnancy. this is from the abortion survivors network. it is interesting to hear from them as they watch this dialogue . people who are living and have a valuable life, who work -- to see this discussion in a different light and feel devalued in the process. >> i would appreciate that. there was an interesting topic on crisis pregnancies. what we see happening. it has been an attack again crisis pregnancy centers in the follow-up. it is interesting because we used to hear from the left of that abortion should be safe, legal and rare. you would think a crisis pregnancy would be a place we can agree on was a good thing. now the dialogue seems to be we should have more abortions, the better. it has been. dr. kumar mentioned this is racist or working in an organization that was started by margaret singer is not statement to make. a eugenicist. can you speak to the work you've done? >> i worked closely with them. i found they are able to provide that support. we talked about the difficulties women's face to abort. one of the reasons they are successful to not abort is they offer the support to walk with her through pregnancy. to get resources she needs. it is not you had your baby do not care. this continues post pregnancy. new models being proposed, mature -- maternity waiting homes and live in a waiting home after you had your baby. they are doing tremendous work. >> judgments time expired. >> the gentlewoman from ohio is recognized. >> i think you chairwoman maloney and ranking member for holding this hearing. draconian abortion bans that force people to remain pregnant exacerbates racial health disparities. in places like ohio, a six week abortion ban was slated to take back so -- following the dobbs decision due to the passage of ohio senate bill 23 in 2019. in ohio, a judge temporarily blocked the states low, and restored the right for a high winds to an abortion. if a state white -- statewide band where to go into effect, they would have generations of disinvestment would suffer the most. so ms. frye, when it comes to assessing reproductive health care, how do abortion bans and restrictions impact communities of color that have been left behind? >> thank you. i think we have to remember is the status quo is not ok. the status quo is one where inequity resulted in decades of disinvestment and lack of quality health care. what we want is the ability of every person, particularly black women and indigenous women and people of color to have access to quality health care they need. what happens with abortion bans is and takes the decisions out of their hands. it forces them to look elsewhere and relies on systems that have perpetuated disparities for decades. the city -- this is bans that tonight black and brown women to control their bodies. instead have to go to state legislatures. in order to figure out what health care they need, it is a step backwards. it will do little to address persistent inequity. this is a problem as you know with black maternal health disparities. we have a crisis in this country were black women are three times more likely to die than white women. we need to do more and not less. more means making sure they have access to the health care need and access to doctors to get them sound advice and not advice that is edited by politicians. that is what folks need. that is what the abortion bans will do great harm to folks who are trying to correct these disparities. >> when we discussed health impacts of abortion restrictions, we must recognize the structural racism faced by people in our -- people of color. across united states people of color experience health disparities including hiring rates of insurance stigma and racism. i national ban on abortion will increase maternal deaths by 24%. and increase maternal deaths of black women by 39%. these numbers alone should scare all of us. mr. lee, i understand that following your own abortion, you began volunteering at an abortion clinic. have you seen an increase in patients coming in for abortion? >> i now work full-time at the independent abortion clinic in allegheny reproductive health. i'm proud to work there with my colleagues. i answer the phones, and i talked to -- i am one of the first -- person patients talk to when i called to inquire about abortions and schedule appointments. and two thirds of the patients i talked to are from ohio, west virginia, kentucky. we had a patient from mississippi, texas and a patient who drove from indiana. so, as i said we are one of two clinics in western pennsylvania. we are providing coverage for a lot of rural areas in pennsylvania as well as beyond 470% of your state. -- four 70% of your state. >> it is important to know for people with less income, the cost of abortion transportation costs, childcare and taking days off from work. they pose significant barriers to receiving care. state restrictions that force people to travel longer distances to see a provider make abortion more affordable -- unaffordable. you treat patients in texas were the right to abortion was eliminated a year ago. but has the impact been on people of color who experience disproportionate barriers. i see my time expired question. >> you can answer the question. >> thank you. >> i would say abortion is an economic issue. folks i see site economic issues for access and when we deny that care. that means children are forced to have. >> the gentleman from texas is recognized. >> thank you very much. today's activities are designed to divide congress, divide the american people and not to bring together. today, our country is going through a tremendous storm across our south and east coast. i know we do be at a time where we are thoughtful about so many americans that are facing difficulty. i would like to talk about this issue in a different way. i know it has been pitched as a battleground of choice versus the rights of people. i know it is pitched as a nationwide ban that republicans want. in fact supreme court ruled that it is not a constitutional issue, it is states rights. whether i agree with it or not, i think it is important that we recognize that is the law of the land. i have a bit different take on this, perhaps may be informational. i have a down syndrome son who is 28. alex is a young man. he is a young man who faced some difficulties early in his life with medical issues. otherwise he was a normal baby boy who was born. he turning -- turned into the kind of person who made a lot of his life. he has a big brother who is a medical doctor, who is an eagle scout, who is a young man that both of them get up and enjoy the day. they see admission in front of them. while alex has what might be called an intellectual disability. he has been able through the grace of god, because god helped create alex. alex has been nothing but a positive person to thousands of people who have known him. he is an inspiration, not just with his life, but the way he greets people. he was a regular visitor in congress. he would come to the floor and make friends. he is a person and a young man who had a desire to make something of himself and others have fully accepted that. if i can give a story to those who might consider their ideas about syndrome person might be in there like that would like to say it is a positive thoughtful experience. alex has his church, his scout troop or works at home depot. he works at home depot because home depot recognizes that people who might not have all the necessary eligibility's, they still have lots of abilities and engineer an asset to their business. they are an asset whether he is pushing carts to clean up a parking lot or is greeting people. it is a tender sign of life. , and we were chosen for this. we did not necessarily conceive alex, we did not have to say what we want? this is not like shopping at a grocery store going online to amazon. it is something that you are participatory wets. he agrees. i do recognize and be. i would sing up this should with what i believe was hyperbole the issue in talk about nationwide ban on what republicans want to do is to these rights. for -- it is an issue solved on state-by-state basis. . it will not be decided in the near term because we have a president who has been duly elected, who would not sign that legislation. it will be at its appropriate time if it will the national issue. it will be available to voters in two years. >> i would like for us if we could between now and then to talk about this issue in a way that is balanced. that is the supreme court made a decision and to the country will deal with that as they have made many other decisions. some i agree with and some i disagree with. but it is the law of the land, and i think each of you for being here. i would tell my fellow colleagues that i think this issue should be when we deal with carefully. because we are dealing with the essence of life. >> the gentleman yields back and the gentlelady from florida is now recognized. >> thank you and i appreciate the opportunity to talk about this issue. the gentleman from texas said something i think gets to the crux of the matter we are dealing with. when he referenced the supreme court made the decision. that is what the problem is, is there is a question that needs to be answered. that is who gets to decide does the government get to decide whether or not or when a woman can be pregnant? or, is that a decision, a personal health care decision that should be made and left to the woman, her family, her faith is dr. question mark republicans answer that question because they introduced 52 bills to that restrict abortion access. this is contradicting the will of the american people. the truth is that abortion access is popular. most americans do not want government forcing women pregnancy, in my home state ron desantis and extremist republican passed a 15 week band. which a survey shows that 60% of the aliens opposed. pulls show that sentiment across america. you had an abortion in 22 weeks after receiving the devastating fetal diagnosis. you also work with patients with different experiences in recent. spirits, why do most americans support abortion access no matter their age, gender or ethnic background? >> as i said, it is my honor to have witnessed so many stories of folks seeking abortion through volunteering, storytelling and my job. what i can tell you to be true among all abortion seekers or folks considering them is there more people trying to make the best right decision for their life. a lot of the people i talk with our parents, and i can hear their toddlers giggling in the background, and state express having their hands full. i talked with folks who have been in visa situations and on birth control who fail. i learned that no one has a good or bad abortion. there are no right or wrong reasons to have an abortion. there are people trying to make the best next right choice for themselves and no one is more or less worthy of seeking abortion then another. >> kansas voted by a landslide to protect abortion. the florida judge who denied a 17-year-old and abortion based on her school grades was booted out. smart republicans note this is barbaric. they opt you skate, they waffle and hide their decision and they say the supreme court did not outline it -- outlaw abortion they left it to the states. in state after state republicans keep passing extreme laws opposed by either citizens or make it harder for voters to protect abortion rights. in michigan, arkansas and florida, extremist trying to block or make it harder for abortion right now initiatives to reach abortion -- motors. voters favor abortion rights. only extremists went to force pregnancies and put doctors in jail. how can bell measures like once in kansas support extremist -- anti-extremist loss? >> they can support a rule and make it clear from voters that the right to access abortion is one that enjoys wide support and people expect to access in every state. it is unfortunate that people have to resort to those ballot measures. that is why were were so important. it secured the light for every person. i think it is really critical for folks and states to speak up and speak out. >> republicans know if abortion restrictions are a losing issue. werner desantis craven weight skirt the harsher laws and brush them under the rug and will not pursue them, when they can. that is because people want the freeman to make their decisions about their bodies. those freedoms republicans know they want to enact to these laws they have to defy the will of the people. that means avoiding or undermining democracy. no one should be able to take that freedom way, and if they do they must be held to account. >> i yield back the bounce of my time. >> the german from louisiana is recognized. >> thank you to my -- manager, and colleagues. some of us do not care about the politics of this. some of us do not like politicians. we have our own core principles, we may -- make no apologies for those. i am the seventh of eight children, six sisters and one brother. who greatly help members -- outnumbered. i was raised as a southern gentleman in a catholic family. i support life from conception to natural death. i make no apologies for that. this is a deeply divisive issue in america because it is a deeply personal concern. on may the first 1990, my daughter was born. i recall when my wife realized she was pregnant, the joy that we felt was long, just a few months later that danielle was born by c-section. almost three months early she wake -- she weighed 1.5 pounds. my wife and i, devoted ourselves to our daughter, struggling for life. for many months, could tour our very soul. our daughter daniela breathed life into us. her hand would wrap itself around my little finger and could not reach. she touched every life she gazed upon. she had a particular calmness of spirit. regardless of what she was going through, and the pain that we felt, that i felt as her father, the guilt that we felt, my wife and i had we done something wrong. no matter the sorrow that we bore, daniela looked at us with his beautiful gaze as if to tell us it is ok. everything will be all right. we were not sure what it meant, but on november the 10th 1990, daniela died. had touched hundreds of lives with her little she touched so many lives that when the hospital built the new facility, they named the facility after my daughter. america does know that this is a conflicting issue i see respectfully to my colleagues across the aisle. but america knows that life is more than flesh. my living children, for 30 years now, have always known their sister daniela. countless trips to the graveyard , birthdays celebrated. every christmas daniela's stocking hangs up on the mantle with the others. my wife had a friend who had an abortion, i didn't know for years what they discussed. that was a private matter between my wife and her friend but after many years my wife shared with me that her friend had had an abortion. and she was haunted by that. she would have nightmares of little hands, tiny little hands. and i was familiar with those tiny little hands because my own daughters would wrap around my finger just barely. so this is a painful and deeply personal discussion. i am hopeful that my colleagues will communicate across the aisle and let's deal with this honestly. madam chair, ideal. >> the gentleman yields back. the gentleman from vermont, you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, thank you my colleague from louisiana. this question in my view most of us i think, should be decided by a woman. not by politicians. in vermont, we have significant support for reproductive choice and freedoms for women. but there are two things happening and i want to ask a few things about this. one is now that there are abortion ban, it is not a question of i accept your decision on how you want to decide and you accept mine. there has really been a lot of divisiveness injected into this because there are folks who think it is not only their right to decide but their right to decide but the right to decide for you. and i disagree with that. the second thing that is happening with some states allowing for reproductive freedom and others not, it is putting a strain on the health care system. we had a roundtable in vermont with providers and they were describing how this is creating additional stress on the health care system that has been under immense stress due to covid and other things. so i want to ask a little about that. dr. kumar, are you seeing increases in patients traveling to other states to receive abortion care? >> yes, absolutely. since june 24 when the decision came out we have not provided any abortion care in texas. everyone has called us or thought here with us has had to travel out of state. some people cannot make the trip that is the only option we can give them. >> you talk to colleagues and some of those receiving states, how does a deeply shortstaffed environment affect physicians like you and the care you provide, not just you but the nursing staff, the frontline providers? >> we are certainly seeing an influx of people seeking care in other states. they are already taking care of people living in that state and the infrastructure is already having a hard time keeping up. we are seeing wait times of up to three or four weeks sometimes. the infrastructure is strained. >> thank you. thank you so much for sharing your story, miss, these additional hoops patients have to jump through, anytime you have a health event you are really vulnerable. you are dependent. you are nervous and apprehensive. you are also nervous about what the expenses are and how you are going to do it and the logistics and what it does to your employment and family. the average patient who is a living week to week, paycheck to paycheck who does not have a lots of flexibility and schedule, has a lot of pressures and demands that take up an immense amount of time every single day, can the average patient jump through these hoops of traveling out of state, finding a provider to receive abortion care? >> thank you for the question. it is my honor to be able to represent all of those patients that we are seeing in pittsburgh who are traveling. certainly i only talk to patients who know they can travel out of state. there is a lot of misinformation out of their that people don't and they can travel. when i do, patients will often say, do you think actually you can see me next week? could i come in in two weeks? i should have enough time to save the money. and that is a heartbreaking thing to hear. that is a reality in our country. we do not actually take insurance because the vast majority of insurance plans are not allowed and do not cover abortion. one of the things that gives me hope and is a reminder to all of us that the actions entries as we take now are creating the poorest world -- post world we are living in is we are able to provide significant financial assistance to patients because of the generosity of fellow americans who believe we have this right and that $250, $400, cannot make the difference between if you can elect to have an abortion or not. i am not exaggerating when i saved myself and my colleagues on the phone scheduling these appointments cry with patients at least once a day when they hear the relief when i say don't worry about it. you don't have to bring a dime. it could move me to tears now because of how we are showing up for each other, supporting that cause. i paper my abortion out-of-pocket without a second thought because i am lucky and privileged and it is my honor to pass along that support to patients who otherwise would be making this faltering decision of parenting -- life altering decision of parenting. >> thank you very much, i yield back. >> the gentleman from georgia, mr. clyde. you are now recognized. >> thank you madame chairwoman. we are here today because of the supreme court's landmark and lifesaving decision in the dobson v jackson case but the truth behind why we are really here is the democrats want one more opportunity to place abortion front and center in the news before the november elections. they believe saving innocent unborn life's is a problem and want to use this last session as an opportunity to campaign on killing innocent unborn children. dr. verma, i seek you are a fellow georgian. i quote there is no such thing as a heartbeat at six weeks, it is a manufactured sound. so let me ask you, is a heartbeat at six weeks a manufactured sound? yes or no will suffice. >> i want to start by -- >> yes or no will suffice, ma'am. do i need to review the question? >> i would love to answer your question but like so many things in medicine it is complex. >> i don't believe it is complex. it is a simple western. -- it is a simple question. yes or no? >> i would love to answer your question. i need a little bit of detail because -- >> i just need a yes or no. is it or isn't not? q. are not going to answer my question. -- you are not going to answer my question. this study titled role of ultrasound in the evaluation of first trimester pregnancy in the acute setting published in 2019 in which it finds that's in normal fetal development a heartbeat is expected at or around the week. >> without objection. >> thank you. while we are talking about science let talk about biology. let's keep it really simple, yes or no questions and this is for dr. kumar. duke took -- dr. kumar can biological men become pregnant and give birth? >> men can have pregnancies especially trans men. can biological men be pregnant and give birth? are you saying a biological female who identifies as a man and therefore becomes pregnant is a man? is that what you are saying? >> these questions about who can become pregnant are really missing the point. >> this is me asking a question and you answering. i am asking the question not you. >> i am answering the question. somebody with a uterus may have the capability of becoming pregnant whether they are a woman or man. >> ok, we are done. the vast majority of the world considers that to be a woman because there are biological differences between men and women. i mean, clearly, any high school biology class teaches men and women have different chromosomes. females are x x and males are ex-wife chromosome. cannot believe it is necessary to say this but men cannot get pregnant and give birth. -- males are x y chromosome. dr. kumar, in your opening statement you said quote abortion ban's are inherently racist, and fundamentally part of the white supremacy agenda. how do you rationalize working for planned parenthood and organization founded by someone who associated with white supremacist groups and eugenics? her and fire -- her entire focus was to decimate communities of color to eliminate future generations. how many abortions have you performed in your lifetime? >> likely thousands. >> likely thousands ok. do you believe you have terminated enough unborn babies to justify her beliefs and your continuance of her legacy? this is unconscionable and inexcusable. i am thing it is no criminal and i look forward to the day when life is again respected across our entire nation. i would like to ask for unanimous consent to cement for the record a copy of the u.s. constitution which despite my democrats colleagues claims does not and i repeat does not include a right -- a constitutional right to abortion. abortion is not exist and it's and i would like to ask anonymous consent to submit the declaration of independence which highlights the unalienable rights to life. >> so ordered. >> thank you i yield back. >> treat all witnesses with civility and respect. the gentleman from illinois is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. dr. kumar would you like to answer the question? >> thank you, yes. i find it -- i am flabbergasted that we have 17 states with abortion ban's and we are talking about what is going in -- on in-state -- going on and takes his. we do not stand for racism and we are happy to serve clients. >> i want to turn your attention to this 15 week nationwide abortion ban which senator lindsey graham first talked about but it turns out on june 24 of this year, mr. mccarthy the house minority leader actually said he supported that. it is not some kind of an abstract concept. it is very clear that if mr. mccarthy were to somehow become speaker of the house he would put the 15 week abortion ban on the floor and it would likely pass if it had a majority of republicans supporting it, which it currently does. here is my question, which is this nationwide abortion ban 15 week abortion ban, dr. kumar, eight 2021 study predicted a 21% increase in pregnancy related deaths if and abortion ban were imposed. with black women facing a predicted increase of 33%. can you explain to us why there would be an increase in pregnancy related deaths as well as more black women -- 33% increase in black women dying as well? >> i would point to first the recent cdc report that found that four out of five of those deaths are preventable. some of the top conditions they talked about were mental health conditions such as depression. excessive bleeding referred to as hemorrhage, cardiac conditions. all of these things are preventable but when we look at the landscape of abortion access and talk about a 15 week band and we can look at florida for example, what happened today was a natural disaster hurricane. we think about what is happening to families, what is happening to their homes, folks that maybe 13 or 10 weeks pregnant, how they deal with the things they are having to deal with in their life being pushed further and further into pregnancy. when we look at accessing abortion and the clinics still available in haven estates and how long are waiting sometimes several weeks is also pushing them further into pregnancy. that is what we continue to see but it will only worsen from here. >> what i am hearing you say is that if you have this 15 week abortion ban, and you have all these people who already are lacking maternal health care and of course, access to reproductive health care that they were -- they are likely going to go past the 15 week mark and get pushed into pregnancy whether or not they like it. now, tell me walk us through why that will result in death. >> that is a great question. what we find in the turn away study -- looked at folks able to access an abortion and compare them to folks not able to access an abortion. these folks had less access to prenatal care. they had worse outcomes including things like a clam kyiv and in the study -- things like eclampsia. it causes generational harm. >> tell us about the children that are born in those situations, tell us about their health. as they emerge into the world. >> from this study, they showed that folks that were denied abortion access had lower birthweight children and that there was poor maternal bonding. it is understandable as people making decisions about their pregnancies and what to do in their life know that they can be pregnant and when they are denied that care it is difficult for them to come up with the means to state pregnant and parent people -- children appropriately. states that are most restrictive also tend to be the states that lacked appropriate maternal care. >> i want to ask you a question, sometimes my colleagues like to create this exception for life of the mother, not health of the mother. you probably heard of this exception. tell us a little bit about what that practically means for a physician who is forced to decide whether the life of the mother is in jeopardy as opposed to trying to save the person's health and whether this person escalates to a point where their life becomes endangered and they die. >> your time is expired but she may answer the question. >> thank you. it is often unclear to us as doctors who are practicing on the ground with these exceptions mean, when we can intervene and take care of the person in front of us. how sick is sick enough? how much bleeding is too much bleeding? it is counterintuitive to us and our training as doctors to have to wait for someone to get sicker for we can take care of them. i want to point out as a doctor we practice in these really complex environments. medicine, people's lives are complex and we do a disservice to our patients by trying to put things into neat little boxes or narrow definitions as we have heard politicians try to do today. that is not how medicine works. >> your time is expired. the gentleman from kansas is now recognized. >> thank you madame chairwoman. the oversight committee is meeting to talk about abortion for the third time this year. we could be -- to pay their rent and utility bills. people in lower income communities are choosing between eating and living in their homes as runaway inflation continues to impact everyday lives. we could be conducting oversight on this administration's energy policy and its agencies rulemaking that has hindered gas production, compromising national security and in the midst of a global conflict where energy is the key --. or we could conduct oversight on policies that led to the border crisis and the fentanyl crisis. our mission reported the most over death -- overdose deaths and its history. over 80% of which come into our country via the southern border. this drug is being laced into other drugs designing it to look like candy. but, this committee is holding a hearing about abortion. two month ago after a previous hearing about abortion. the decision on jobs sparked 8 -- the decision on dobbs. i would like to use the remainder of my time today to expose some untruths coming from the other side of the aisle. one assertion we have heard in the wake of the dobbs decision, we hear that restricted access to abortion disproportionately affects minority women or communities where women already struggle with accessing health service but even abortion advocates won't refute that procedures come with some risks of future pregnancies. in finland where the maternal were colony rate is lower the risk of death for abortion is four times greater than the risk of death from child birth. based on your experience is abortion a positive contributor to -- >> >> it is not a positive contributor to women's outcomes and especially not to the outcome of -- the death rates, knocks the complication rate for abortion for black women is to-three times of that of other women and in my opinion, clinical opinion, one of the great burdens we do not talk about at all is the crisis, epidemic of preterm birth and african-american women. african-american women have higher rates of abortion and abortion is constantly associated with risk for preterm birth especially abortions performed at later gestational ages. >> how do you respond when people argue abortions are [inaudible] >> with all due respect, those papers use different data sources which are not compatible and they arrive at a conclusion which really is not tenable based on data. in spite of that these statistics and that particular claim have been relentlessly echoed over and over again when there is absolutely no basis for it. in countries, as you mentioned finland, countries where we have -- abortion-related mortality, we can see that is not the case. abortion statistics in the u.s. are flawed, maternal mortality rates are flawed as well so we cannot come to any reasonable conclusion except by extrapolation. i mention the study earlier from 2004 which showed an increase in risk for death from abortion with every gestational -- every week of gestational age but we don't have the data to come to that conclusion. >> why is that? why do not -- why don't we have more information? >> it is somewhat complex if you look at the latest statistics which came out last week from cdc, it shows interesting trends. one is that you can have -- you have deaths in early pregnancy from things like ectopic pregnancy and deaths around and after postpartum but the problem is that some women die in pregnancy but not from pregnancy-related causes. that is a substantial number of women. i think we really need to push for both better abortion mortality collection, better basic data collection on -- >> time is expired. the gentlewoman from new york is now recognized. >> thank you, madam chair. briefly i would like to address some of the prior claims that several -- one being that abortion is not an economic issue and that we should be focused on economic issues. i also think it is important to state that abortion is an economic issue. forcing poor and working-class people to give birth against their will, against their consents, against their ability to provide for themselves or a child is a profound economic issue and it is certainly a way to keep a workforce basically conscripted to large-scale employers to work more against their will, to take second and third jobs against their desire. so the idea that abortion is somehow not a profound economic and class issue and class struggle is certainly something that i think a person who has never had to intend with the ability to carry a child. it is disappointing to see. but secondly i think another thing i would like to address is that the same folks who tell us and told us that covid is just the flu, that's climate change is not real, that january 6 was nothing but a tourist visit, are now trying to tell us that transgender people are not real. i would say that their claim is probably just as legitimate as other others which is to say not very much at all. dr. kumar, are you able to tell me what methotrexate and what conditions methotrexate is routinely prescribed for? >> and has a number of different uses. it can treat ectopic pregnancy's, dermatitis, lupus, and there are several other conditions it can be used for. >> i believe it is also used to treat cancer is that correct? >> correct. >> i believe you said rheumatoid arthritis as well? and it can also be prescribed in the event of an abortion correct? >> writes it can be used for ectopic pregnancy's. >> what we see here is that this is one drug that has many different applications to pending on the condition, which is common for many other medications as well. high blood pressure -- indications for high blood pressure can also treat other conditions as well. what we are seeing here is many of these abortions, anti-abortion laws are written by legislators that have little -- to the nuances of medical care. texas has designated methotrexate as an abortion inducing drug and now the same people who have cancer, arthritis and lupus have to prove that they are not using those medications for abortions, which then of course delves into gross violation of privacy issues that create real conflicts for people. is this something you are seeing, dr. kumar? >> certainly. i heard from people in texas who have been using methotrexate for other medical conditions and are not able to access it at the pharmacy. some people have also gone to the pharmacy to get medication and been asked about pregnancy test or if they are using any kind of contraception which is a violation of their privacy and should not be asked in getting these medications for some time. >> thank you. i would like to walk through a little scenario in a small amount of time i have left. i, for example, since republicans are forcing this conversation in uncomfortable ways, then i will make them do it. i have an iud. if it fails and results in an act topic pregnancy, which has about a 50% chance of an topic pregnancy are merging with an iud, with that mean if i were hospitalized would have to wait until i was in the process potentially of actively dying before q could treat me and save mayor anyone in our positions life? >> thank you for this question. today and to my knowledge there are no laws that outlook care for ectopic pregnancy's but will we have seen in texas, we have seen people denied access to that care and i have seen somebody in texas who left the state to get care for act topic menses. it is -- ectopic pregnancies. >> that is exactly the problem. >> your time is expired. >> thank you. you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. good public policy is based on facts but you must understand issues in order to draft strong, effective legislation. that is the whole reason we came to work here in washington and to hold hearings and be with our constituents to pass legislation to serve communities back home. unfortunately this hearing today has nothing >> to create a false narrative about republicans and drum up votes before midterms. the left and knows they'll listen. this hearing is purely of a last-ditch effort to save the ship. let's talk about facts. i support common sense abortion regulation. that is why in 2011 as the speaker of nebraska state legislature i used the first of 20 week abortion ban. out of 49 state senators and our unicameral i got 44 votes for this legislation. that included 10 democrats. it was a bipartisan bill that set the stage for similar bans and many states, and democrats in my state are telling me they're comfortable with the 20 weeks. i believe a great number of americans support these regulations. i believe it is important these conversations happen at the state legislature. that is what we did in nebraska, that is what the dobbs decision meant and will benefit us as nebraskans and americans from having these conversations. i have a question for dr. woman horse. -- dr. wubbenhorst. can you explain where a child is developmentally at 20 weeks? >> it is an excellent question. at 20 weeks, children are well developed. if you remember that previously viability it was around 20 weeks. that number has been pushed back by the neonatologist. we are at a point where 21 or 22 weeks, children born have a reasonable chance of survival. at that age, children's eyelids may be fused. in terms of their ability to move and perceive pain, their ability for bodily functions. air on the way to being at the age of viability. that is only one or two more weeks past that time. >> many on the left, pro-abortion activists support late-term abortion and abortion to birth. can you see where a child is developmentally at seven months in the pregnancy? >> at seven months the baby's lungs are extremely well developed. those infants have -- begin a fairly high rate of success in terms of transition to outer uterine life. there lungs are developed, there immature, their brains are developed. they are able to interact with the environment. while they definitely suffer from certain g.i. problems like colitis, occasionally because their prematurity. they are very much along the lines of close to being with proper care able to survive and do well. >> thank you i think it is important to note that nebraska was the first in the nation to do this. how did this get passed? i think it more -- has more to do with our technology has come so far is that you can see an ultrasound of a child, and you can see the fingers, toes, legs and head. you can say i created a life here. what is the impact of the technology, ultrasound and 3d imaging when you work with patients? have you seen a change during your practice with the benefits of technology? >> tremendous change. virtually every area it related to neonatology. as far as imaging is concerned, early in my training, ultrasound was draining and have low resolution. very often it was a question of whether it was helpful. now we are at the point of being able to see three dimensional and four dimensional renderings. the other point you brought up with what is going on at 20 weeks and 28 weeks. those infants are able to survive with assistance and our other technologies. to abort the infant or allowed to be born and neglected it so it dies is problematic. if you have an infant that can survive and care for, then you are making a decision that is infanticide. >> thank you for your testimony. >> the gentleman from maryland is recognized. cracks thank you -- >> i want to make the observation that democrats do not have to convince anybody the republicans have an extreme agenda when it comes to abortion bans. people are saying that themselves, pulling indicates a majority of americans do not agree with that agenda. we are trying to bring attention to what is happening. as republicans moved to implement these abortion bans, providers in states like maryland that i represent, that protects abortion rights have seen an influx of out-of-state patients seeking abortion care. maryland enacted a new law that will allow more qualified trained medical professionals to provide abortions and several local jurisdictions committed significant funds to increase the availability and conference hat -- comprehensive reproductive health services in maryland. even with resources, providers face new challenges to work overtime to meet the needs. dr. verma you provided abortion care in georgia until they implemented a band earlier. how did increase number of patients from states like texas, where abortion was no longer accessible impact your practice before this recent decision? dr. verma, thank you for that question. we have seen this unjust patchwork of abortion bans forcing people to leave their communities and travel for care. instead of being able to get that care in their community. we are seeing that is delaying when they can get their abortion. in the united states, 90% of abortions happen in the first trimester and -- and less than after 20 weeks. delaying people in getting the care they need is when we have these abortion bans forcing people out of their communities. and people end up thinking they will go to health -- health center but end up better crisis center that is using deceptive practices and lying to them about how far along they are. that is tricking them into delaying that care, and they are not able to get the care they need in a timely manner. we have seen that. >> i appreciate the insight. the other thing i think is important to highlight is these abortion bans do not just impact reproductive health. they also impact a doctor's ability to provide other essential health care. in texas, some oncologist have been forced to deny radiation treatment for cancer until they become even sicker because the standard of care would include an abortion. dr. kumar what implications does this have for women's health and to the health care system as a whole? >> thank you for that question. abortion care is part of the spectrum of care when it comes to reproductive health care. it is a critical part of that. i have seen patients that had recent diagnosis of cancer whether it is breast or colon cancer. who are awaiting to undergo treatment and coming in for care. like you mentioned their colleges told them it is best to not be pregnant before they continue. i have seen patients who had children undergoing care. and have come into having abortions abortion so they can take care of the child. folks that have children in the hospital and need present for them. this has an effect on many people throughout the health care system. that includes emergency room physicians that see increased visits from people who have not been able to access care. some in other folks throughout the health care system. >> thank you. besides increasing through -- increasing the risk, and interferes with the doctor-patient relationship and integrity of the medical profession. it is an affront to the medical profession. dr. berman -- werner not on clinical needs, but on the ever-changing legal situation? >> we trained for years and years to be able to provide evidence-based care to our patients, and to be able to adjust the care to the needs of the person in front of us. now, we are being forced to practice in situations where the laws are based on science. and are at complete odds with the practice of medicine. instead of being able to do what is best for the person in front of us, we will think about whether we will be criminalized or our licenses will be taken away. we are thinking about our livelihood is for providing evidence-based care. that is having a chilling effect on the medical profession, and it is not what people want. people want their doctors to provide them the care they need, without us having to think about whether our licenses will be removed. >> thank you. a powerful statement. i yield back. >> the gentleman yields back. of the chapman from south carolina is recognized. >> i asked for unanimous consent to to enter a survey. >> without objection. >> here we go again. the country is suffering dramatically at every level. inflation, gas prices, supply. here we are, discussing -- getting a panel that dashes the abolishment of roe v. wade and put it back to the states. it shows you how disconnected this administration is on solving problems in this country. the last panel we had of pro-choice advocates. i ask a simple question. do you agree with killing of the child at birth? they cannot answer it. i said that is your decision. you agree with that. i would not bother asking you all that question. i will tell you i am a grandfather. my daughter had a 25-week-old child. it was this big. it was a child you could see pain. he was moving in the wind. then did not make the choice to kill it. had it at term. it is three years old. what is amazing to me is the distortion this administration is using. i will name a few that is sad. it has to do with the dobbs decision. the abortion restrictions were not allowed a physician to perform an abortion if it causes risk. abortion laws have exemptions to save the life of the mother. the myth that abortion restrictions means a woman with a neck topic pregnancy must choose between jail or death. even planned parenthood that affect topic pregnancy is not the same as an abortion. a myth put out by the left. state abortion restrictions for prevent physicians from treating miscarriages. pro-life legislation will not prevent any woman from getting care during the heartbreak of a miscarriage. myth, abortion has no adverse mental health facts. i will tell you i talked to a lot of ladies that talked about having an abortion, tears came to their eyes. then as well. do not tell me there is no mental effect. it is a metal of -- mental effect. the fact you are putting out it does not is not true. abortion contributes to increased rates of mental health disorders among women, including anxiety, depression, substance abuse and excessive risk-taking. and suicide. at the myth that overturning roe v. wade threatens other presidents found in privacy rights such as gay marriage, contraceptives. the dobbs decision clarifies the opinion only impacts abortion and argues abortion is different from other privacy issues like contraception and marriage. it destroys the life of a human being these are mitts that americans are fed up with. these are mitts that will not sell. >> i understand that the dobbs decision, 27 states have few or no limits on abortion. does that mean in the states, our nation allows one of the most extreme policies in the world? >> i am aware that 27 states allowed. i think where abortion laws permit abortion up to and including the time of birth. when the child's birth would have been. that is an extreme position compared to the rest of the world. there is no question. as we talked about earlier, it is only canada, china, and north korea that have similar. >> we join north korea in that distinct -- it blows my mind. do you want to comment on that after tomorrow? do you want to comment on the course month >> most black women do not live in china or north korea. quote it has access to health care. dr. kumar. dr. kumar: i would respond to your first comment. nobody stands for infanticide. i think suggestion we would support that is inflammatory. even the amount of a and harassment abortion providers face. >> the joe maddon time expired. the gentlelady from michigan is recognized. >> i want to pause because that was intense. i appreciate you being here. there are so many women that can be here and you are speaking for them. -- cannot be here and you are speaking for them. when i served in state legislature, i wish my colleagues were as obsessed and dealing with infant mortality. environmental racism that gives so many folks pre-existing conditions. so much more. the 13 districts i represent, i grew up with in the most beautiful city and the country. the city of detroit. unfortunately, because of systematic racism. we see poverty at high levels and pre-existing conditions because of environmental racism. we are raised in detroit with one of the worst asthma rates in the nation. we have the worst infant mortality in the nation. a few weeks ago, we held in environmental subcommittee in our district about communities facing high rates of pollution. at that hearing. i do not know if the chairwoman knows. it was incredible to hear folks living in the shadows of u.s. ecology that continue to pollute and communities feel like they are sacrificed. one of the biggest health issues they raised was pregnancy complications, loss of pregnancy, difficult having children. i heard it from a dear friend losing a child thinking is it because i live here? dr. burma, one of the things i wish folks would understand, addressing infant mortality and offering pre-naval -- prenatal care, will that save lives? >> that would save lives. what we are seeing. i provide comprehensive reproductive health care. i proved -- i work with patients who won abortion care and want to continue. i support them to access health insurance in trying to get prenatal care. there are huge limitations when it comes to that. when we are talking about that. it is important we pursue policies that allow people to have healthy pregnancies and parents in healthy ways. we support all that. i want people who need abortion care to get that. i want people who want to continue their pregnancies to be able to do so. >> i cannot thank you enough for providing your testimony. i do not know, as a woman our country. i feel like we are not as obsessed with our children living in poverty going to schools with the lead in the walls. where most of my schools do not have access to clean water. they are -- surfactants are shut down. why is abortion bad so dangerous for patients and families with stories like yours? >> i push it the question. and that question reminds me that as i sat here, wind representatives who left the room so they cannot hear this correction. have sat here to use the five minutes to tell us about how eyelids are developed and fingerprints and heart. it is demeaning and it is insulting to insinuate it is important to all pregnant people, everywhere. the rhetoric and sensationalist ancient create stigma and shame, and it is wrong. it is really difficult to sit here and hear that, and not actually be looked in the night and asked about my experience. not being asked a single question while i have to sit here. i have the privilege and honor sitting here and representing many people. my friends karen, whitney, and erica who had to say goodbye to babies before they help them. -- held to them. mr. higgins your story was beautiful and i share your grief. no one needs to be reminded of the sanctity of life. we need to be reminded that this is a nuanced complex decision. that will never be answered by a binary yes or no question or the amount of weeks by ultrasound shows. we need to leave people alone to make these decisions for themselves and families and betterment of our community. >> thank you. >> you deserve a lot more time. i want you to know you may not have felt seen and heard, i see and hear you. with that, i yield. >> the gentlelady yields back. i ask unanimous consent that representative dr. kim schrier be allowed to participate without objection. she is recognized for five minutes. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. and thank you to our witnesses. i met several of you, but not all of you. i would like to introduce myself, by saying i am the first pediatrician in congress. i have worked in the neonatal intensive care unit. i attended high-risk deliveries and seen families up close. i teenage girl facing an unplanned pregnancy or his mother who is so excited about the pregnancy and finds out checking wrong. if that is why i heard from ms. lee this is a new wife question and questions that should be left between doctors and patients. the government has no role in making such a personal decision. i am the only i am honored to be here. mainly i want to set the record straight on several things i heard. the first is can we talk about ectopic pregnancy's? dr. verma, what is the treatment for ectopic pregnancy? >> the treatment is either a medication or a surgery. >> either way this would be considered an abortion, is that correct? >> and there are distinctions present, but we are absolutely seeing, there are great errors. these abortion bans definitely affect people who affect topic pregnancies. the most common pregnancies are in the tube and treated in those two ways. there are types of ectopic pregnancies in the cervix or c-section scar treated very similarly in the way we do in abortion. we are seeing there are this confusion because politicians who are making these laws do not understand the medicine and science. these laws are affecting people that are having ectopic pregnancy's. >> thank you for pointing out politicians making medical decisions. i wanted to ask about miscarriage. that word is thrown around a lot. i miscarriage is the natural loss of pregnancy. can you tell us about an incomplete miscarriage? that has traditionally been called, you can correct my language, and with the treatments. >> we see patients in the process of passing a pregnancy. they are experiencing bleeding, cramping into their cervix is open. part of pregnancy is present. there is a lot of uncertainty. i've seen things in georgia whether doctors can intervene and provide the care that patients need. patients are not experiencing delays in carrots because of this uncertainty because of the band. >> is putting doctors in an untenable and inappropriate position of having to call an ethics board or call their lawyer before they can treat their patient with a standard medical care. i had another question for you. let's go to dr. verma. we heard mental health. i hear that thrown around a lot. can you tell me what the overwhelming mental health response of women who get abortions is? i do not believe it is any the things republicans are pointing up. i believe it is really great can you confirm or say otherwise? >> the study that follows many women who had abortions and were turned away found the most common emotion was relief, and i appreciate you pointing out the amount of misinformation we heard. i want to emphasize the overwhelming consensus of the medical society, which includes 70 my -- 75 featured medical societies have come together fetish abortion care is essential, necessary health care. abortion restrictions harm our patients. anything can be misrepresented for a political or personal agenda. the science is not up for debate, and to the consensus of the medical community, which includes ob/gyn, surgeons, the ma, pediatrics. the consensus is clear. >> i hate to interrupt, but i have a -- another question. another source of misinformation we hear from my colleagues is a one 95% of abortions occur early in pregnancy, and your experience, have you ever had a patient -- do patients come in at eight or nine months and decided they no longer want a pregnancy, or can you clarify these are for extraordinary circumstances that no politician should decide for a woman? >> there is a lot of misinformation that we are hearing today about abortions late in pregnancy. >> think you for clarifying and setting the record straight. i yelled back. >> thank you doctor. and representative. i would like to introduce this document into the record. it is a statement from the american college of obstetricians and gynecologists, which represents and trains more than 57,000 ob/gyn's across america. that affirms what we heard from dr. verma and dr. kumar. it says abortion is an essential component of women's health -- health care. ". it also says personal decision-making by women and doctors should not be replaced by political ideology. i agree, republicans need to stop interfering with women's personal health care decisions. i would like to place this in the record without objection. and have the gentleman does not care for a closing statement. i would like to give one briefly. to our witnesses, who shared your expertise, personal stories of abortion -- today. i want to thank you very very much for all that we have learned from you. as the witnesses at today's hearing made painfully clear, republican abortion bans and restrictions are already taking away rights and jeopardizing the health of more than 30 million women across our country. as the memo we released today shows, very clearly, republicans are now intent on banning abortion nationwide and putting doctors and nurses in prison for providing abortion care. if republicans succeed, they will strip reproductive freedoms from 64 million women in america. that is horrifying. republicans are not telling the truth about their abortion ban. they claim today, they want to protect women's health. the truth is, i national ban will increase maternal. a recent analysis estimates we could see an increase in maternal debt of nearly 30% in the first year of a national ban. they claim they do not want to quote force" people to support abortion. their national abortion ban would force women to give birth against their will, even if the fetus is incompatible with life as this is lee's experience was because politicians say so. today, we heard exactly how devastating this would be. we heard today how i national ban would roll back the clock on women's rights and economic advances in this country. it would have a profound impact on entire families and that is simply unacceptable. democrats in congress understand the right to control our reproductive futures is essential for our democracy. i would say there is no democracy if women cannot make decisions about their own health care, including reproductive. this is why democrats continue to fight to protect abortion -- rights. we passed bills in the house to protect this right, and we will not stop until we ensure that everyone has the freedom to make their own health care decisions. with that i yield back. i was swept away with the emotion of today's hearings. i must make this closing. i want to think our panelist for the remarks, and i want to commend my colleagues for participating in this hearing. and conversation. with that, and without objection all members of five ledges -- have five legislative days to submit extraneous materials and additional written questions for the witnesses to the chair. which will be forwarded to the witnesses for their response. i asked her witnesses to respond as promptly as able. this hearing is adjourned. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. funded by these television companies and more including sparklight. >> at sparklight, right now we are all facing our greatest challenge. that is why sparklight is working around-the-clock to keep you connected. so you can make it easier to do your homework. >> sparklight supports c-span as a public service along with these television providers giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> friday on c-span, the house is back at 9:00 to pick up a short-term spending bill to fund the federal government through december 16. at measure is already the senate. a house must act before friday to avoid a shutdown. nancy pelosi will hold her weekly briefing with reporters at 10: 45. >> listening to programs on c-span or c-span radio does start easier. tell your smart speaker, play c-span radio and listen to washington journal, important congressional hearings and other events throughout the day and weekdays at 5:00 and 9:00 p.m. eastern catch washington today. listen to c-span any time. tell your smart speaker, play c-span radio. c-span, powered by cable. >> next, ron desantis with an update on emergency response following hurricane ian.

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