My name is leyland. Im the general manager of commerce bookstore. Would you like to have you here today to share an evening without a vitale and kim whaley if you havent been here before welcome to kramers, this is an iconic establishment started in 1976 known forest parkiness progressiveness and inclusive this if youre returning book lover were thrilled to have you here again now that students dances are safe enough to return to inperson events. This is about our fourth event. So far in this new space, so welcome. Oh and perhaps its unnecessary to say, but if you could please silence yourself. Its really never unnecessary to say that but i always say that. All right. Allow me to introduce our guests of honor. Ill leave italy is a capital hill correspondent for mdc news based in washington, dc. She ported on both President Biden and Vice President harris throughout the 2020 campaign trail as well as congresss most recent efforts to pass covid release legislation. As an mdc news road warrior in 2020. She followed and reported on the campaigns of Center Elizabeth warren. Senator, Amy Klobuchar and Michael Bloomberg during the democratic primary contest. To previously covered the trumpet ministration as a White House Reporter for nbc news digital and was a Political Campaign embedded reporter on donald trump 2016 president ial campaign. She joined nbc news in 2012 and is graduate of Tulane University her first book. Id like to go why hasnt america put it put a woman in the white house yet. Well be out in august 2022. A professor Kimberly Kimberly is an author lawyer law professor and legal exp. She served as a legal analyst for cbs news appearing on face to nation with margaret brennan. She is a regular guest on msnbc cnn bbc and npr and has appeared on fox news cspan and pbs. Shes a contributor to politico the atlantic the bulwark the hill and has written for the Baltimore Sun and la times. She is a former assistant United States attorney associate independent council in the white water investigation and author of the books how to read the constitution and why what you need to know about voting and why and how to think like a lawyer and why . Kims books are all available at the counter of the bookstore, please please help me welcome ali vitale in cuba, lily. Hi everyone. Im so excited to be here fourth event in the space feeling really good about being back. Person and to be here to celebrate kims amazing achievement of this latest book, youre so prolific. Were just talking about how many she has and i think its so striking you say its just this big moment for ethics and Civic Engagement and i think this latest book really speaks to that. And of course many of us know kim from her columns from her many appearances. Im thankful as someone whos also all the time on msnbc you and i often get to float in boxes together next to each other. So to be here in person is is a real treat. Ive been excited about doing this talk for weeks now, but im really excited that were doing it today of all days because the first thing that i thought of this morning was the news that we ended up covering all day, which was on the leaked memo or decision from the Supreme Court about the dobbs versus mississippi case, and the first thing i thought was so how do i think through this like a lawyer would and so im glad that were here to talk about this tonight, because i wonder for you. How you digested all of the different pieces of that and how we as an audience of people who are engaged and following this news what we should be looking at. Well, let me first thank kramer for having me and thank you ali for doing this and everyone for being here. Its a its a really apt question because in the book i talk about five steps i break down thinking. Oh like a lawyer into five steps the number one step and one that students have said is the biggest takeaway from my classes is to take a big issue in break it down into smaller issues. So we are in a very polarized world thats called people say that all the time but when i say that what i mean is were into black and white thinking im right youre wrong heads. I win tales you lose we go to our camps and we entrench ourselves in those camps and abortion of course has been one of those divisive issues now, several decades and its polls will ask. Are you pro . Are you against and actually its a much more complicated nuanced question, right . So if you took the question am i to i support abortion rights or not many sub issues there right . You have to think about the Health Care Implications for the person who is finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy. You have to think about the implications for the ark of constitutional law and other rights in america. You might have to think about the moral and religious implications for yourself Justice Alito and the elite decision open that decision talking about the morality of the issue, which really isnt the job of law. Its the job of the individual and the family and the faith right, but if you take that big issue and break it down into smaller ones immediately you realize there arent any easy answers right if you want to emphas is one aspect of it, maybe, you know people believe many people believe that the life of the unborn child is something the law should respect but if you if that is your priority you have to give something up right youre going to have to give up the the needs or interest of the woman particularly low income women who are disproportionately affected by these kinds of laws. So thats really step one and well talk about the other steps but getting informed on the facts the legal implications that bear on each of these those issues and turning it over saying okay. Whats the other side of the coin here . Like i try to say imagine youre the person that you really respect. What are the best arguments they will make for a position. You dont agree with were not used to thinking that way and thats what the book tries to get to and frankly. Ive been doing a lot of tv and radio today. Yeah and trying to break it down into what is this really about not you know thumbs up or thumbs down issue is really the most critical element of it because i think what youre talking about with the buycat method in this book is so important to how all of us can apply the ideas to okay. How do we even make sense of this really wideranging opinion that came down and is going to have impacts over the course of the next few weeks and months politically and then of course civically and socially but its really your first book that allows you the perfect insight into this moment particularly because its whats in the constitution. What are our rights here . And i wonder what your first thought was when you read that alito draft where he was coming from and what argument he was making. Well the critical part of my series of books in the title is the why yes, if you understand the why you can understand the what right . So why do we have . Constitutional rights when i ask people this question, what is a constitutional right in these groups . Inevitably someone will raise their hand and say well, its just something that i have as an american, but actually functionally its not so much that what is the constitution . Like its the ability to go to court and get an order stopping government from being. Too aggressive into some space that is personal to you. Right so my first question and reading alito and we can talk about the details. He kind of set up a twopart test for these rights Going Forward. That is a little arcane. Its brand new in the law really or its it draws from other elements, but the bigger question really i said to myself i think almost the abortion debates been framed improperly around the rights of the woman. Its really about how much do we want to confine and constrain the power of the government, right . This goes to anything from the rights to bear arms to the right to not be forcibly sterilized by government. Thats not in the constitution and were talking all about. Oh abortion rights isnt arent in the constitution. Well, theres a lot of stuff. Is not in the constitution and the problem with this decision is the potential cascade of implications for rights that we take for granted. But again, if you understand why we have rights, why do we call them rights . Its because we most americans want their freedoms. They really dont like an overbearing government encroaching in private spaces. Thats a really different frame right . So if you think about it that way and not so much always that the woman is that is it the unborn child, but is it about as a as americans . How much power do we want to give government the Supreme Court . It looks like its poised to really aggrandize the power of government and minimize the power. Of individuals and i dont think people across the political spectrum like that idea and i think its actually a fascinating way that you talk about it too because the decision would put the power with the states, right . So the idea theoretically of less Big Government at the federal level, but much bigger influence at the state level, which i think is really fascinating if youre looking at conservative principles too well and talk about okay. Why do we have a federal government, then why because we had a civil war just an example around certain states wanting to continue to enslave human beings for profit, right . We then had a post reconstruction amendments the 13th the 14th the 15th amendment the 14th amendment is where roe versus wade and abortion rights and a lot of rights come from but what happened there . Well, the Southern States said we dont care what the constitution says were going to do what we Want Congress had to pass a statue 42. Yes usc 1983 called the Klu Klux Klan act it basically as we said to the beginning give people a right to go to court to get an order to tell the government to stop doing something. So the fact that states have you know their own legislatures doesnt is it enough if it were enough we wouldnt have a constitution the framers understood that its psychologically human nature to a massive abuse and their power and thats why we have the government broken up into different pieces. Its all about accountability and again, the book if you understand the why and you understand the very implications you can noodle through these problems and get out of im right youre wrong. Im right youre wrong and then that just escalates and people get isolated people feel feel judged people feel shamed and once shame enters a picture the dialogue is over and i want to talk about the tribalism and we can come back to that. But i think the thing that was striking to me is i picked up this book initially and i thought well, my parents are lawyers. Theyre going to be thrilled that im reading it. But when you think of how to think like a lawyer i think that some people might initially wall themselves off to the idea that they even need to because they dont work in politics or they dont work in a law firm. But really, i think what i was so struck by in these pages was the fact that you say no attacking it with this mindset can help you figure out anything from should my kids have a social media account to the bigger life questions, too of like, you know, what happens if getting divorced and i think that when you when you make that turn to the personal it becomes so much more accessible and i wonder why you think its important to make that turn. Well, all of what i do frankly why i started doing this a few years ago was to take the Law School Classroom sophisticated, you know graduate level legal analysis and translate into common sense everyday language for people the big distinction. I would say between how lawyers think and its hard for my students to get this it takes weeks and the rest of us most of the time lawyers look for questions. Yeah students come in. They want the answer. Whats the answer . What do you want professor whaley im like, well, im not going to be sitting in your office when you get the first problem and if youre if you could wikipedia the answer no ones going to pay you 500 bucks an hour, right . Youre here. Youre hired because its ambiguous. Its great. Its squishy. Its confusing. So lawyers are like bloodhounds and look for the questions. And the answer is only come later if at all, i mean most of us arent going to be on the Supreme Court. We started talking about Supreme Court. So lawyers have to deal with bad facts with bad law. They have to tell their client. They cant give them get them what they want they deal in this in between space and what we see on tv is theyre fighting for their client what it doesnt we dont see are the weeks and months and sometimes years of spade work gathering facts making sure theyre verifiable you do. This is journalist. Yeah, not because youll go to jail, but because it makes for Good Journalism and you have professional ethics and thats the same for lawyers. Yeah, and i also think you you make the point that a lot of this is fact finding and i think that right now in this moment, there is so much saturation online on social media and along with that comes disinformation. We have seen the real life implications of that even on Something Like january 6th, right but you give in this book some examples of you know, legacy organizations are the places that you should be going you use the marty mcfly test of if they were around then, you know, you should be looking at them now, but i wonder what you think the impact of having all of these different spaces for information are because on the one hand. Its a nice democratization of media on the other. It makes it really hard to find good facts sometimes. Yeah. I mean i think about when i grew up in buffalo, new york 105 kids and we had the super duper encyclopedia when my mother bought enough groceries. Shed get the next the next volume and thats where we all went right that that was everything and so the goal and if you really wanted to dig in you go to the library youd have to get the card catalog you might have to do some microfiche you have to go to the xerox machine and make the copies and have your coins. I mean finding the information was the challenge right and was the skill now, its the opposite. Its sorting. Yeah the information its sorting it. Its not only overwhelming in terms of content exponentially growing but algorithms based on our swipes and our clicks and our speech. Yes our thinking for us and feeding information into our phones that confirms perceived biases that we have. Its a different completely different world where we need to learn and we need to teach our children how to sort for good facts and what does that even mean . And thats i think i think technology and ive said this for many years but technology is vastly outpaced the law and its also vastly outpaced how we problem solve we talk about Critical Thinking skills. The five part by kat method is is really that its okay break it down into pieces identify your values and im sure well talk about that surprises people that lawyers have to think about value systems collect lots of knowledge and i do talk about how to do it analyze both sides because if you dont think of your opposing argue, councils argument youre going to youre going to lose you have to know your opponents argument as well as your own and then t, which i think is critical tolerate the fact that youre not going to get everything. Its not black and white. Its mostly gray and you have to tolerate the fact that you cant have it all and you got to give stuff up and were just not used to that in our culture. Its you know a team team mentality. You know, my team youre very tribal and its hurting our kids. Its, you know, depression rates anxiety suicide. People are feeling alienated. They dont know to communicate. They dont know how to bridge gaps and and connect which is our human instinct. So i think people do look at the title and say oh lawyers. All they want to do is fight. Oh, yeah, actually actually its the opposite. Its kind of chicken soup for the soul chicken soup for the soul with like your one l class wrapped into it. I mean i even grew up when you talk about having to learn both sides of it my parents used to tell me you shouldnt ask questions that you dont want to know the answers to or unless you know what the answer is going to be and that comes from knowing where the other side is coming from. I think the thing thats striking for me because i exist on the hill in a place that is regularly our versus d red versus blue you can predict the tribal lines on every issue as they form and part of it feels like were not operating from the same set of facts anymore on a lot of these issues and im wondering how you wrap up this moment of perceived bias and the way that you cant really tolerate the other persons argument if it feels like youre not operating from the same foundation because the tribalism is just seeping in how do you unwind all of that . Well, i think a lot about this right so started with the book on the constitution. Yes, then i realized our democracy is all about voting which is not in the constitution friends. Theres no right to vote in the constitution and then i realize okay its deeper than that. Our failing democracy is is Something Else and thats thats to answer your question. I think we need to back to shared common. As human beings, i think what we saw today or were going to see with this Dobbs Decision is a crisis in of compassion in our country and when i you know just anecdotally, you know been in an uber with someone that was, you know, very dogmatic about donald trump or whatever things when i shift the conversation to common values common value system. How powerful do we want government to be . Yeah how powerful nobody wants that nobody wants government deciding wet how you raise your children . Nobody government telling you. What job you can have whether you can enter into a contractor. Not none of this is spelled out in the United States constitution. So if we can connect around, all right, were humans and we have this shared value system. You set aside the republican you set aside the demo