Any role for trade associations in this process . Because your discussion of courtesy sounds a lot like the norms long prior to the existence of copyright in england where there was a court enforced courtesy in terms of possession and first entry of areas published things. Thats what we know about the ownership of intellectual property by printers and stationers in london. And were their associations, a group meetings, of recognized publishers in new york and philadelphia in the 19th century where courtesy amount of things might be discussed . Lars ingles is asked if theres formal organizations that grew up in the 19th century, more formal publishing organizations to recognize courtesy. And im not aware of any formal organization, although varies certainly the publishers when they got together at their yearly dinners and other gatherings, actually boasted about their righteous participation in courtesy and how important it was. Though i know of no courtesy killed that existed but it certainly existed in reality. Now, when you get to 1890 and after, there were some major attempts to use the kind of courtesy that is in formal prices by large deals to enforce a kind of protection. One of these is the fashion originators guild, enforce the sale of legitimate designs and dresses and punish those who retailers and others who marketed knockoffs. This was found to be a violation of antitrust laws in the early part of the century, similarly for a group a Publishers Association that grew increasingly upset because there was a great deal of price slashing in books sold their books sold by the Major Department stores like macys. And they set in motion a kind of price fixing activity that covered both copyrighted and uncopyrighted works. They were knocked down by the Supreme Court for antitrust publishing. One thing i would add is that to the extent this could become a largescale phenomenon, i think it would run up against strong antitrust law that might step it down. Theyre not going to sue chef soandso for participating in chef a with chef be and probably not sue Robin Williams for recognizing the in formal rights of some other stand up comedian. But if i got larger i think would run up against an antitrust problem. [inaudible] thank you. How are you . [inaudible conversations] booktv is on facebook. Like us to interact with guests and viewers. Facebook. Com tv. You are watching cspan2 with politics and public affairs. Weekdays featuring live coverage of the u. S. Senate. On weeknights watch key Public Policy events. And every week in the latest nonfiction authors and books on booktv. You can see past programs and get our schedules at a website, and you can join in the conversation on social media sites. Booktv continues with Karima Bennoune. She profiles muslims around the world, including in the u. S. , who are fighting against islamic fundamentalism. This is about an hour. Good afternoon and welcome to todays meeting of the Commonwealth Club of california. Im dina inrahim, an associate professor of broadcasting at San Francisco state university. I will be your chair for todays program called your fatwa does not apply here. We also welcome our guest from the Turkish Parliament and we welcome our listening and internet audience and invite everyone to visit us online at www. Commonwealthclub. Org. And now it is my pleasure to introduce our distinguished speaker. A veteran of more than 20 years of Human Rights Research and activism, Karima Bennoune is a professor of law at uc davis. She grew up in algeria and the United States. She has served as a Legal Advisor at Amnesty International and has taught at rutgers and the university of michigan. She is widely published on the issues of fundamentalism and counterterrorism. Would you please welcome professor Karima Bennoune. [applause] thank you so much for being here today. Its really an honor for me to be here. I would like to thank the Commonwealth Club for inviting me and for courtney this event and thank you for the lovely introduction. So what i want to do today is share with you a few excerpts from my book, your fatwa does not applyour fatwa doesnot apps from the fight against muslim fundamentalism. And i want to explain as well why i wrote this book. It was a very big project. I actually interviewed about 300 people from nearly 30 muslim majority countries, from afghanistan tamale. I did this specifically to learn about the work combating extremism are the own expense of persecution at the end of fundamentalists. The people that i met in these three years were incredibly diverse. I think thats one of the most important things to note about the project. Soy into good religious scholars and bloggers. I interviewed housewives and such a rights activist. I interviewed people excused themselves to pray in the middle of interviews and other people are toasted the birthday of the prophet mohammed with a glass of wine. Plugin is tremendous diversity. I interviewed and imams daughter who promote these Womens Rights Convention which enforcement the u. S. Hasnt ratified yet, but she does this believing the Womens Rights Convention is entirely reconcilable with their own muslim they. I interviewed the only woman chief prosecutor in afghanistan who has 23 bodyguards, and yet despite the actual attempt on her life, continue to prosecute in cases of violence against women and corruption, and all the while fears that the United States and international the inl community may be about to sell out afghan women individual quote reconcile with the taliban. The question i asked myself time and again is why are these people not more wellknown internationally . Everyone knows who Osama Bin Laden was, but very few people know about all of those on the ground who are challenging people like him. What i set out to do in this book is to change that, or at least contribute a little bit towards that change. I did this for very personal reasons because my own father was an anthropologist of muslim heritage and raised his life throughout the 1990s to stand up to extremism in his home country of algeria. What i remember is even when hes driven from zone and forced to stop teaching at the University Due to Death Threats from the fundamentalist armed groups, he remained inside algeria and he continued to publish pointed criticisms of both the fundamentalists and the government that they fought. In a threepart series published in newspaper back in november of 1994 very terrible time in what was called the dark decade in algeria, he produced an article called how fundamentalism produced a terrorism without precedent. And in that article he denounced what he called a terrorist radical break with true islam as it was lived by our ancestors. The algerian the democrats as they called themselves unfortunately received very little support internationally at the time, including from the International HumanRights Community where i was working. It often seems the International Community could not understand what was happening on the ground in algeria because generally people did not grasp the threat to human rights from the ideology of islamism itself. This was the pre9 11 era. Let me stress the ideology of islamism is an entirely different thing than the religion of islam which is practiced by so many people in some way different ways more than a billion people in the world. But i think this misunderstanding of the nature of the threat of the ideology of islamism the human rights of muslim heritage themselves persist today. I would argue and see this at the moment in the press coverage of what is happening in countries like egypt. Doing this kind of work on the front lines without international support, without international comprehension of the challenge that you face is an incredibly lon lonely endeav. I have seen this firsthand. As a lawyer told me back in december 2012, at a time when entire northern half of her country was under jihadists occupation, she said International Solidarity is very helpful. When you live such a crisis alone, it is much more difficult to bear. What my book is really about is trying to break this wall of loneliness and silenced by connecting the people who are doing these struggles on the ground, the people around the world who stand for similar values of tolerance and equality and against discrimination and violence. So before i kill you a few of the stories, i think i should Say Something about what i mean when i use the term muslim fundamentalism which, of course, itself is a controversial term. I given the book a definition i the algerian sociologist who writes about fundamentalism, no bs, not just within islam but fundamentalism is which she defines as political movements of the extreme right which in the context of globalization manipulate religion in order to achieve on all muslims everywhere. And second the ultimate goal of creating what they deem to be Islamic State to many muslims would dispute entirely their definition of what an Islamic State should be like. And that state is to be ruled by the unitary version of what religious laws that they abdicate. These movements have been on the rise since the iranian revolution in particular, and we find them manifesting as Political Parties, as armed movements, sometimes even as nongovernmental organizations. In response to these movements in the contemporary period, western discourse has sometimes seemed to offer only two choices. That is the number one, the openly discriminatory or flawed characterization that suggest some that islam is inherently fundamentalist or all muslims are fundamentalists into one. That is good not only offensive but just plain wrong. One hears the sometimes on the right in the west. Unfortunate on the left is what one sometimes hears responses that are too politically correct even to broach the topic at all. And in my view neither of these sets of responses is accurate or helpful, and both do a great disservice to people who are living on the front lines. What im trying to create another way to talk about this in the west. I should say as a backdrop to all of this, i am painfully aware that there has been a rise in discrimination against muslims in the last few years in this country as articulated in the far rights attack on president obama as which is have become a kind of a sense. But my view is that even this does not mean that silence on the topic of transport is appropriate or productive. And, in fact, my contention is one of the key ways to challenge discriminatory notion about people of muslim heritage is precisely to display their diversity. And that one of the ways to do that is to tell the stories of those were practicing muslims, those who are agnostic, or even atheists of muslim heritage who have been victims of muslim fundamentalism and have chosen their bravely to challenge fundamentalist movements. Thats a project of my book and with remained a much im going to introduce you to a few of these people and its difficult to pick favorite stories because they have all become very dear to my heart. Let me start with a story from the first chapter which is called creativity versus the dark corner. This is a chapter about artists, visual artist and performing artist who i met in places like pakistan come in algeria, people who are refugees from somalia. And its no accident i think that in virtually every context i visited or studied, artist were on the front lines challenging extremism. I was and continue to perform the art or through its very content. One of the people i met early on in the Resource Research was a gentleman who was the director of the theaters workshop in pakistan. Since 1992 he and his family and the Production Company that they ran which was named after the playwrights father brought some 24,000 performing artist from 86 countries to perform in pakistan and simultaneously promoted the work and the performances of local pakistani artist as well in areas of dance and music and puppetry. They brought joy to generations of pakistani art lovers. But as o as a type of jihad vioe in pakistan in 2008, they became a target. They begin to receive threats to call up their events which they were told was in full by those who are calling them and threatening. They refused to heed the warnings. So in 2008, a jihadi bomber actually struck their Arts Festival with three separate bombings producing what he described as a rain of blast that failed, injuring nine. The bombers accomplish was a 12 the potato chip vendor coming to the vineyard carrying ieds along with his packets. I think this is upsetting a particular because there were so many children in the audience at the event as well. But likely the boy was caught it was able to detonate his devices. So they then face a terrible decision. They are festival had been hit, people have been injured. Theres a threat the attacks would continue. Should they call off the performing Arts Festival . They were up, the brothers and sisters, debating this question and Faizan Peerzada told me at about 1 a. M. They decided, as he said it, ladies and gentlemen, this aint going to work. This festival is going to continue. As he said to the bbc at the time, if we doubt if we bow down we would just be sitting in a dark corner. They announced the festival would continue the next day. And what happened . Thousands of people, more than it ever had in their audiences before, poured into the vineyard to show their support for performing arts and the opposition to the bombers. That festival was able to go on and continue until its scheduled conclusion. But mr. Vincent was terrified. He was delighted that he saw a young woman coming in the venue with her two small children and he ran up to her and he said you do know it was upon her yesterday and did you know theres a threat to a be a bomb here today . And she said, but mr. Peerzada, i used to come to festival with my mother understood these images in my mind. She understood the only way for her children be able to have a cultural life was for people to be there at that event. The next year, unfortunately, it lost their sponsors and could not put on the festival for two years later in 2010 i was able to attend the first event are able to do in the very same thing you. So there we sit in the spot where the bombs went off watching schoolgirls performing a musical called do not. The place sometime is dont tie your tail to a coward. Its about animals. I remember thinking, no one in this venue has been that. The auditorium was absolutely packed. This is a remarkable thing. Eight time when the taliban were targeting the girls schools, blowing a girl schools and hit his schoolgirls were dancing and singing and playing with mice and water buffalo on stage. You could see mr. Peerzada in the front leaning forward as though he could leap onto the stage at any moment if necessary to protect the girls. But the play concluded successfully and everyone exhaled and burst into applause and some are weeping. You could see this sense of hope that people have that childrens theater in peace is still possible. When i left the venue that night i was filled with a tremendous sense of hope. First because his teenage daughter told me that in spite of everything that happened she wanted to grow up and become a theater director like her father. And second because when its leaving the venue, i came across the fre free drive space anythig and someone had written two words which summed it all up. No fear. So the longest chapter in the book is i think unsurprisingly the chapter on womens rights defenders. Biggest everywhere i went women were in the forefront to struggle against women battling beyond stereotypes. I think the relationship between womens rights and fundamentalism was very well explained to me by a sociologist in west african nation who was deeply worried about the rise of al qaeda terrorism in her country, targeting, Even Health Care workers and so. She said something very, very smart to me that became kind of the theme of the chapter on womens rights defenders. She said every step forward for womens rights is a piece of the struggle against fundamentalism. I think thats a very important thing for policymakers to think about womens rights are not something you can trade away to gain peace with extremists. Womens rights goes to the core of the struggle against fundamentalism. One of those engaged in the struggle whom i met along the way was a doctor, a 70 year old retired College Professor who has an Organization Called the network of women living under muslim laws. She is very angry when i meet her about the date of Corporal Punishment like a 20 dont condemn stoning for adultery in sudan. Every day there is a case of women being attacked for what they wear or what they do. I find this very depressing. A practicing muslim herself, she stresses she does not resist islam but rather an islamist discourse. That is, interview aggressive and offensive and crystallizes around the rights of women. I asked her whether secular or religious discourse on womens rights were more useful and challenging fundamentalism, and she insisted that the best approach depended on the context. In certain places it may be entirely appropriate to make what are sometimes called islamic feminist arguments. That is, within religion and religion law. However, for her, she said i refuse to reinterpret the koran to change the family law. Im not going to enter into the religious debate. I do not want to close myself off. And she argues that above all else, the strategy for combating fundamentalism be a political one that takes the de