and also fails. it also understands that if he sent out the restrict the crane, they can defect. they can turn arms against him. that's from my guest debate. from now we are ciocca is chief political advisor, to bela lucian, opposition, leader for atlanta. the kind of sky up. she claims to be the national leader of bella luce. but how legitimate is her claim? and how successful has her opposition been to alexander luke or shank goes regime product marriage orca. welcome to conflict on. oh, mister whittaker, over the weekend, you had russian defense minister saturday showing go in bellows, meeting his opposite number. and just few days before that, you had unnamed russian general, deriving in minsk as well for various meetings. is russia planning an escalation of the war in ukraine with bella? luce has help the visits afresh in general, some officers, our usual thing, since the question that came to power. but to when we're has started, all the deals that are signed became secret. and we don't really know how much independence, how much over and to remain in the hands of a people, we believe that every visit they decide on given was here in utah, those sector of military conflicts on their control of russia. a listen to music is also important because it happened just of this, of mr. mckee, the foreign minister, which was very close to lucas and, and it was perceived by below to some officials as a reminder, who is in charge. so go to some officials or some officers are afraid of moscow. i do want to talk about the death of foreign mr. mckay, but 1st i'd like to talk about what these written by russian generals mean. you have, for instance, described as a very dangerous development reports of russian besides including hypersonic missiles and 5 to just to just make 30 one's being stationed in bellows. what is the information you have? is russia planning log scale ad assaults, and you create an infrastructure from bella? ros. the last me, silas shrugged as we have missed was on november 6th from bella was very direct, so it needs a rated for 2 months. there were no st. strikes from from betters, but to the same time i more than $10000.00 russian soldiers to ride together and there and deployed in different parts of our country. there are some military training. along with our troops, we see vehicles. we see as some banks we see some the region so fair defense systems arriving to bellows. it doesn't seem their brain in attacking group of army on builder editor. it seems they are bringing the army in order to control the situation in billers in order to fix their ration, occupational builders, we really believe that russia can use beller as a consolation prize in case if you will lose the war in your green, are you what is the bella lucian troops might be thrown into the fight and ukraine . it's still not next to 3 months. right now russia doesn't have a capacitor now or newer vehicles from beller started to re baler. army so will not be able to conduct such reparation if the strong backup primarily technical back up from russia also, belittle sounds, soldiers, they don't have morale that they don't see cranium to enemy in society. there is a consensus that we don't support this for the bill. of our mission not participate, but also sales. it also understands that if he sent out the re strips to crane and they can defect, they can turn arms against him. there will be split of really, there will be new way for protest. and he's really afraid of sending, resend true, still to ukraine, because his bow, it's going to cost him the power. so you're confident that with russia is back to the wall in ukraine, essentially. losing the fight, falling behind on the battlefield as a young adult. and by the needle, 2nd general says that president putin is not pressured. i pressuring, alexander lucas shank to commit his troops into battle. you're confident that i think they're playing the role. it's that performance elevation case playing the independent leader who supports russia and who wants to stay exclusive, alive or pushing. because this is the only way to stay in power to have guarantees that the will not come to murder him. but also for a question, which in this is very, very important right now in order to control the internal domestic situation. to say that her own ocean is what pressure asian bush. and i think let's, let's imagine that this is the leash and lucas jenkins. there are con the leash and puts in this trying to shorten this leash so much as possible. do not allow luca shameka to not leave him a space at toll. this is the goal of putting to create that up at the regime satellite regime, which will be doing 100 percent over him. the capital moscow will want from him. so you had said in november that a 14 was not interested in sending bell at ocean troops to ukraine. you stand by that? yes, yes, i think it will create more problems than the benefits. it's not experienced. i mean, i was in the army, i was serving the minister on the border with decree. it was 10 years ago, but they know what, what, what is it? what questions came to nest in cage would be the in the secret services that, that they have to protect himself. but he never invested in some army. when bill it'll chance with a received mobile is ation coals. there will be huge protest resistance because society doesn't support this war at all. and the look a shame, probably bolt, which in about this also push and use the legion that push him if i will send my troops, then the all on the 20 and let you know, will attack me. because you see they are preparing, they escalate, they deploy more troops on the border. so he use this as the reason him in order to last handout sam tropes. so they play this performance. everyone is happy, they create their pressure, they create the pressure on the ukraine constant pressure that this might happen. and i think that even the threat of sending our troops to destruct and be courses of the cranium. help us understand. alexander lucas shall go. the current leader of bellows. would he rather be on the side of president fulton? or would he rather be with the west, for instance, he will be with the weekend because when this mentally close to him, location pays the soviet man. or if he is very on the western democracy, something that goes against his principles against his for nature are he chose russia and which in, instead of dilution people in 2020 could agree on dialogue with deliberation protest or 2 years ago. but instead, he called for pigeons held to suppress this protest. and right now was which should the tipping point of least pro ration using an adult nutrition. now in october, alexander location court told b. b, nbc, i'm sorry, in an interview that no one was closer to president as a signal to the west that he was ready to mediate with president brought in between president fulton and the west to curtail his dependence on russia. what questions he just want to stay relevant to be important isn't all this like alpha alpha man, he wants to be the source neighbor where this is why he was so happy when the 1st means negotiations took place in 2014 and the host with them question can wants to be the big player. it wants to be in the 1st sleek and also all the statements about his closure. closeness to, to put him about nuclear weapons in dealers in order to raise the price to raise the worse of himself. but usually just the blossom he, he's very poor, old, weak, insecure man. you talked about the death of letting me my k, bella was a foreign minister, a close, confident of alexander lucas shank over. did russia have anything to do with my case death? possible. everything is possible right now. we come to the full day, knew over the versions. we still didn't see the obligation of the document about the decimal, my kid with the ominous restrictions from the past. but still there is no official information. also there they statement from about the death of my peers many years after the fact was revealed, it means there is something behind it. i wish you the better. some officials are very reverend they, they feel that so they can be the next and they think this bass, these could be, could be just just death, but also can be part of the bigger events, bigger than then we were still country. you talked of russian troops in ballard was there to court control. the situation is bella bruce, a hostage of russia. biller was his taken hostage prussia and of putting together lease to criminals. they just use better territory in order to, to attack ukraine to revising prior. and not just the deliberation people are taken hostage. let's not forget that there are thousands of people in jail and it's a 1000 where forced to leave the country in 2021. when chris down took place against the little send them a great the courses, it was approved by ration or ashley war against the cream. you talked about the pro democracy movement. let's talk about that last week. opposition leader murray or less than cobra, ended up in intensive care for she was transferred to hospital from her prison cell . she was perhaps one of the last major opposition figures left inside barrows. would you say her fate is a big blow to the opposition movement inside bellows, muddy and beacons peroration for many pollutions, especially blue santa women. she became a symbol of resistance. and she was selenium the so massive, huge for alice in august and september of 2020. and right now when we found out he's and maintenance of care unit, it was the big truck total loss. but was it a big blow? of course it was a big shock. was it a big blow for the opposition movement? oh, yes it was. it was, it was a blow. it was a blow. but also leah have to investigate what happens to her because just before i ended up ended up in the hospital, she was broken the punishment. so this is the cage be style torture cells. people are without fresh air. people are without communication, they could be beaten. there and something, something happened wrong to her, perhaps there was an order from lucas shanker personally to punish her. doesn't oldish show that the opposition movement inside bellows has been silenced. no, it's not silenced. to change the form of resistance, there are many partners i'm groups, they work in every region of the country. most of them participated in stop in the russian train. they come back some time on the railway in march and april this year . there are now thousands of people, members of the cyber partners, i'm groups. there are a license state infrastructure and few weeks ago they hacked or rushing oversight, committee middle school, next, or league, the data to journalist. and there are many activist scapoziello tional, ukrainian facts, all over the country. i will show some as disobedience campaign, not all over the counter, but in big city this primarily, when the workers of the big factor is refused to do their job. for example, let's take that, let's take that at face value, but doesn't, hasn't that invited a greater correct down against them from alexander lucas ankle is indeed indeed recei right now. that oppression some bigger than in 2020, every day from 10 to 20 people are being detained and people are just detained, their torture. they're harshly beaten. more active is dying treason, and this is shock a lot and to be called on international community to react. recall on the un i to take her urgent measures. let's talk about a number of the berlin ocean human rights crew. the ashna claims, as many as 5000 people are in prison due to political reasons. they are not classified officially as political prisoners, but they are in prison because of their political activism. the united mission series, hundreds of thousands of ballot oceans are leaving the country and going to neighboring countries. my question to you therefore is, who is left in the country to carry out an opposition against alexander lucas ankle bill of ran 1000000 people. buck country sold the protests to, to more than 1000000.5 participants. so even if, let's say a few $100000.00 in the countries to become a 1000000 to resist. also, there is a deep disappointment. be willing to change the situation and to prevent that from participating in this war. so i think people who participate in the resistance right now, they did not participate in the 2020 their new people who reacted on the fact of the war. and they resist right now. they're on the front line and they go out and they protest, despite all the better you are based outside of that was as an opposition. how effective are you? how many people, for instance, has your movement been able to release from prison? we are in daily patch with belittle sham groups are on the ground with local communities. we will meet with blockers. little journalists, who described in the sprint or some easy leaf flat, put in their main mailboxes or spanish channels leader of who, who, who on elections. she created the matrix conditional cabinet, which is like government and example, and which we know, we know all that. you know all that mr via telecom, but then how does that helping activists inside bella rules you admitted earlier that they keep getting thrown into prison and that cracked on has only increased in 2020. so how is your work outside helping them inside in bellows? so we pass assistance, we tried to pass equipment where possible, we conduct information campaigns to come to ration and location because propaganda, i don't think something's fire, belittle chance to apply. we tried to keep the morale that i had to build connection between different groups, different parties and groups within the country. and we can log before more international support for the sounds, force field, fight and in the country. is it not a fan of your opposition movement? that after 2020, at that time and a massive st protest, and it seemed that the game was up for alexander, lucre shinkel. he has been able to hold on and continues to govern bellows. is that not a failure of opposition movement? not yet. as we see there, correct on in 2020 was depreciation for the war. nutrition would ensure life without which him it's put in who provided him with money with soldiers, with the resources back in 2020. and right now the question k, spain is that back to approach and it's not the same about the situation. became much more complex now we are part of the bigger regional jo political crisis. now we are 5 more just for democracy or democratic elections, but we are fighting for the very existence of the state hold. and in order to get the was free and independent, we need the area of the grant settle. i'm african sky, your boss to and to whom you provide political advice, emerged from the 2020 election and particularly the protest, the most street protests that happened after that. and she presents herself as the leader of the bella, russian opposition is she i think she's a national leader ability president elect one elections but didn't take her office because a question can put him issue the leader of the television opposition. i think she's a durability nation because lucas and praise and opposition got more than 70 percent of roles typical or the present. so she does not lead a united benediction opposition. she lives in the united democratic versus exactly . she united all the major groups, traditional political parties and the new groups that appear in 2020. and of course there are different they do all different use among different politicians. but she's absolutely are we unify and figure to to all of the will she delivers. trim democrats, let's see how unifying that is because an opinion followed by telegram baseball stuff. not rodney operators among opposition minded bella. lucian's found that the color scheme regiment of bella lucian volunteers fighting in ukraine was 5 times more popular among bell at oceans than mrs. atlanta. to kind of sky, clearly she's not a leader of a united opposition issue. this is the oldest. they're just a mom activist of this specific group. i'm calling oscar regimented just a group of meet the people in tears. i'm in the ukraine. so listen, compare, you know, political leadership and, and the fighters and the, let's forget to try to most participate in elections in one election, multiple of servers, surveys, polls or international to prove that she one elections. she received 2 or 3000000 vote. so the calling to see the regiment is irrelevant as an opposition group. in oscar regiment is the part of the democratic and independence movement. they are fighters in ukraine. they are fighting for liberation of ukraine and they, are they disorder from huge respect from we school support. there isn't that what you say? they are popular they are not popular as politicians, therefore, are soldiers because they sacrifice me a lie, a notice to, to save ukraine. did they understand that when you cradle with the wind as well? so they are not see another part of the opposition then. now they are fighters with some a divide, and petitions and fighters and military volunteer schools are in the cranium. army of course they are, they are playing very important role. and 1st of all, they see they preserve the group name of the options were seen by many ukrainians as aggressions. i'm calling oscar regimen. they prove that not old delusions are like lucas and the regime and people are 2 different things. right. let's talk about minute, 2nd, sky. you keep saying in this interview, that the national leader of bella rules and she has, keeps calling us out the national leader of bellows. but who accept for lithuania, agrees to call her that almost from every country she comes. she smell on the presidential level in the parliament. she sold this address. madam president, to be just and was there is no, there is no, but there is not official recognition of her as the leader of dollars. or there is the fact recognition. there is the level of vertical which are defined as far as the kind of state. there is no years from this years. we don't to, we didn't go into this game or legal recognition, but it's more than just the game, isn't it? because alexander location goes, regime continues to have diplomatic relations with a lot of countries, particularly those in asia and africa. for instance, there, alexander lucas shan't go count as leader of bellows and not music taken us. let's show this rule and this is, this is the problem for us because loose nation, them, they come to the united nations general assembly and they vote for very all, from the support of proposals, lucretia, and called russian the in the show. this is why we are trying to reach out the countries outside of the european union. we already spoke latin america. we have some, some relation there will be a reached out to stage as well, but the local worker to be done. but the most important in terms of the economy in terms of trade and political relationship or courses. so the european union, one percent is not recognized for the leader. and now we are asking the recommendation team as them as the work criminal. now mr. scott is also sought to find the common cause with the ukrainians. we began this into talking about the ukraine war. let's talk about the war. she have fed and i caught that cannot be a free bellows without a free ukraine. does ukraine see it in the same way as well? yes, i think the ukraine is, but a little bit little bit different. they see dealers as the guarantee of security of safety because of location, space and power. there will be counts from threat to ukraine. like it's happened in february, february, this year, lucretia, and the problem is that they will load the attack from bella territory. and suddenly this attack happened and russian things, some most the reached kia from, from relatives, ukraine. understand the importance of having a good relationship with som