Market forces. Pop lirs wasnt happy what that would do to some of their working class voters. Some in the middle were uncertain anything would really work. I think a lot of people feel exawlsed by this current era and i found myself exhausted. Im an opinion columnist so one of my jobs is to write opinions and im really alarmed by this whole healthcare effort. By the Climate Policy and alarmed by many things in this administration as have many republicans and many democrats. I just realize that look politics isnt all about brute force. Its not all about fighting. I do think its important for people to remember, i thought it was important for myself to remember that democracy is about inquiry, its about debate. So what i said is im going to spend part of this summer grappling with issues i find hard. Im going to try to think about what ways my own views might be wrong and i encourage readers to do that as well. Rose we conclude this evening with author and Bloomberg Businessweek correspondent joshua green. His new book is called devils bargain, steve bannon, donald trump and the storming of the presidency. The piept of the book is to go back and answer the question. I think everybody still wants to know about donald trump. How is it that he managed to get elected and all of us in media and washington didnt see it coming. I didnt see it coming but i covered bannon, i covered breitbart, i covered the up rising over the last years and i spoke to bannon for a story i was doing and looking back it really did come into focus. The whole story and how these two men and their stories are interwoven and really led to this humongous upset. Healthcare and steve bannon when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose we begin this evening with healthcare. President trumps ambition to repeal and replace the Affordable Care act was dealt a significant blow last night in a surprising turn of events two republicans senators utah and kansas came out against the bill. Their defections left the gop leaders two votes short of those needing to begin debating the bill. Early today the Senate Majority leader Mitch Mcconnel conceded their partys effort needs to take a new direction. Well have to see what happens. We will have denied demonstrated that republicans by themselves are not presented at this particular point to do a replacement. That doesnt mean problems all go away. And youll have to look at our Committee Chairman and their ranking members, my suspicion is there will be hearings about the crises we have and well have to see what the way forward is. Rose joining me now from washington is jerry seib. Hes chief commentator for the wall street journal and David Leonhardt is a columnist for the New York Times. Where are we. What is likely to happen next. Well this is a huge defeat for the republicans. You never want to say never. It looked like the bill was dead in the house and then it came back and passed. But this is a really big defeat. Mitch mcconnel cannot get 51 votes for a healthcare bill. So what that probably means is that the Republican Party is going to turn the page on healthcare and look to a budget and tax reform. At least for the type being the efforts to get rid of obamacare seem to be dead. Rose if they do that, jerry, that means they go into 2018 elections, midterm elections having failed one of the things they talked about doing for the last seven years. Right. Which is why one of the things Mitch Mcconnel is talking about at least having a vote to repeal obamacare thats a twoedged sword. That would please the Republican Base to try one more time to repeal obamacare but it ruffled his members to cast a vote that could come back to haunt them in 2018. There isnt a winning scenario here that i can see except maybe this allows both the whitehouse and republicans in the senate to move on to something they find something more enjoyable which is to talk about tax cuts. This increases the incentive and also the urgency of them to succeed on that one because they have to show for 2017 and thats the one they would really like to have. Rose in the end jerry what divided the republicans in both the house and the senate over healthcare. I think the fundamental problem was and lets be honest they didnt expect to win the whitehouse. So they spent the 2016 campaign talking as they have for years about repealing and replacing your obamacare without agreeing what to replace with obamacare. They quunl to power and have control but they never resolved the internal debates when movement conserve statuses and mainstream conservatives and moderates what that actually means. In the end the whole evident fella part because ideological conservatives wanted to pull out obamacare by the roots and inject a lot of free market forces, populist wasnt happy what that would do with some of their working class voters and people in the middle were left uncertain that anything would really work. Rose in the meantime david what was happening on the ground in terms of people who were watching what changes might be forthcoming and becoming alarmed. Thats right. People became very alarmed including a lot of republicans, including a lot of independentents who saw this bill was going to hurt them. This is reality coming home to roots which is as jerry was saying when the republicans were out of power and campaigning they were able to say a lot of things about obamacare that werent actually true. They were able to say socialism even though it combined con servative and liberal ideas. Once they actually took over government they had to turn those talking points into legislation and they just were unable to do son a way that kept 51 votes in the senate because all of their plans would have dub enormous damage and they never really tried to come up. There are conservative approaches to healthcare, even more than obamacare but they never tried to come up with that. As a result they were left with any kind of bill that really any independent experts, doctors, nurses, hospitals conservative healthcare experts thought was a good idea and they collapsed on them. Rose that raised the question i never quite understood the answer to. Is there something that democrats and republicans could come to and say look, obamacare is not perfect by a wide margin, lets try to fix it. So you republicans can gain some credit for changing it. Democrats will maintain some of the support theyve had for supporting things that their constituency believed in. On the substance charlie it is imminently possible. It is still possible. Every major piece of vasion in this country has passed has needed fixes down the line and obamacare needs significant fixes as well. The problem is the republicans so demonized obamacare in the course of campaigns that they had to then try to totally get rid of it when they took over the government. On the substance the idea you go in and fix the flaws in this approach and you do a whole bunch of things remains entirely possible today. Rose do you agree with that. I do. In fact the radical thought here charlie, there might actually be bipartisan breaking coming out and no other choice. Do some moderate things that dont throw out the really popular things about obamacare and maybe trim the edges on some other ones. Our reporters spotted senators from both parties actually having conversations today on the floor of the senate about this very thing. And you know, Mitch Mcconnel has essentially told his caucus for weeks if we cant do this on our own you have to bite really hard and have conversations with chuck schumer. Thats where we are. Thats not going to produce repeal and replace obamacare but more modest steps can be made to incrementally improve the system. Rahm emanuel who used to be the chief of staff in the Obama Whitehouse would say people should stop hitting home runs in healthcare. Hit some singles and doubles and stop trying to fix it all at once because everyone who tries feels the pain. Rose donald trump has weighed in saying dont do anything, let obamacare collapse on its own weight much is that going to likely happen. He also said if that happens i wont own that problem. There are a lot of problem as a political matter dont think thats going to be true anymore. Were six months into the obama excuse me, into the Trump Administration and if the collapse of obamacare produces a huge disruption in the Insurance Market around the country theres a reasonably good chance that republicans now own that problem not democrats and we may have passed that point. So im not sure that that solution all by itself is going to be acceptable even to republicans. Rose david any winners in this battle. It may sound cliche but i think the main winner are the 20 plus Million People who would have lost Health Insurance. For them, this wasnt just a political spectacle, it was real life and you saw in a relative scheme of things a small number of them but you saw a number of them come out and say look if this passes my disabled child is going to lose services. If this passes my relative who has cancer is going to lose services. Thats why you saw this. I never seen anything like this, charlie. You have the advocacy groups for diabetes, cancer, heart disease, lung disease, ease well as doctors, energies, etcetera come out against this bill. I think the reason is it would have had really damaging real world consequences. And the fact that it failed at least for now means there are a lot of winners. You could even argue that the Republican Party in the lone term is the winner because passing this bill would have done so much damage to the country that it ultimately would have done damage to the republican. Rose is the idea of the expansion of medicaid a winner. I was one of many people who was surprised at how politically popular medicaid ended up being. Democrats have been insecured about the pop herity of medicaid forever because its a Health Insurance program for poor people in part. Not totally but in part. And yet it turn audit that republicans in was virginia and elsewhere ended up being afraid, ohio ended up being afraid of cutting medicaid. And so obamacare really has two main parts. One are the private Insurance Markets that the trouble Administration Want to collapse they could. And the other part is this really big expansion of medicaid which is really on safer ground. I do think one of the lessons we learned from this is medicaid is more politically popular even if supporters expected and that when democrats control governments and they want to go about expanding Health Insurance even further, they may look to medicaid rather than the private market to do it. Charlie, one of the hidden stories here i think is the fact that they were out across the country a whole list of republican governors who had made the tough decision in their space to expand medicaid under obamacare. They did not want to roll that back. They did not want to take back something that they had basically walked across the political hot coals to give to people in their state. Those republican governors were heavy influence on some republican senators and i think that in many ways, that is a big factor in the demise of the repeal and replace because governors just didnt want to go there. Rose its evident that you cant give people something and try to take it back. Having said that its also true obamacare has big problems. If you go back to the conversation in 201, Hillary Clinton was acknowledging there were big problems, Insurance Markets were not working as expected. And she had a plan to fix it. Rose and premiums are going up. Premiums were going up hugely. You cant simply say now we ignore those problems. Democrats cant say that and republicans cant say that. Thats why i think theres probably no choice but some bipartisan conversation. Rose i think president obama would acknowledge some of that. It takes me back to your medicaid question which is the medicaid part of obamacare is working better than the private market. Theres this funny situation the democrats when passing obamacare really leaned heavily on the private markets in part to try to get republican votes. They didnt get republican votes even though they included the private market. Now the meese with private markets isnt working as well and arguably isnt as politically popular. I think one lesson democrats are going to take from this is the calculation where you expand the private markets to try to win republicans is a losing bet and in the future youre going to see much more emphasis from them to expand medicare and medicaid which are both popular and appear to be working better than these sort of jerryrigged Public Private markets. Rose what kind of system does canada have. Occasionally youll see on the front page story of the New York Times how universal healthcare and single payer seems to have more at least conversation than its ever received before. Yes. We do. So canada has a system thats well to the left of our system. It is a single payer system. I have a hard time imagining were going to move to a full single payer system because it would mean enormous disruption in whichd rose when you look at the future quheels beyond the Medicaid Expansion is most valuable about what president obama did and the Affordable Care act. Well look, i think david referred to this earlier. The insurance exchanges were originally republican idea, conservative idea. I still think theres value in that idea but the market place is very complicated. Certainly thats going to have some resonance. Obviously the idea you should be able to stay on your parents insurance policy since youre 26 has become an accepted idea. I think both parties have to figure out which pieces to build o i do think the democrats are also at a point where they have to make some tough decisions because the pressure at the base of the Democrat Party right now is in fact going to be lets just move all the way toward a single payer governmentrun healthcare system. Thats going to be where the pressure is and democrats will have to ask themselves are we going to resist that pressure and move more incrementally toward adjusting the Current System because maybe a single payer plan is popular at the democrat base but its going to scare a lot of people and do we really want to go there. Rose within the Republican Party theres no agreement in terms of on where they want to go, is there. Thats the one thing weve learned in the last few months. No. Theres still people in the whitehouse holding that hope theres one more time in the next couple months when this will come back to the senate and well put it together and well still make this happen. I dont think very many people believe that but maybe republicans do have to step back now and figure out what it is they really can agree on and what they cant agree on. Rose on you quickly will that get on tax reform. I think theyll pivot as fast as humanly possible. You also have to say this complicates tax reform. One of the ideas behind the tax reform is to do healthcare first and tax reform later was you cleared up a lot of money by rolling back medicaid and changing the tax incentives under obamacare that could be used to pay for tax cuts, lower Corporate Tax rates and individual tax cuts. Thats not on the table now so they have to figure out how to do tax ree form without healthcare first and thats complicated. Rose you both have been influential german its in washington at the wall street journal and at the New York Times. Give me a sense of what this feels like when you look not only at the legislative failures or the failure to achieve one of your primary victors. We havent herd a whole lot about the wall. We know about tpp but that was not going to pass anyway. At the same time the russian probe continues to have embarrassing revelations. Now for the families. Does this seem to be what this. Well, the president of the United States is an extremely powerful person in any circumstances. And President Trump has clearly had some victories, right. The confirmation of neal gorsuch, a very conservative Supreme Court justice. A bunch of the executive actions to basically stop trying to combat Climate Change from the federal government. Some of the other things. But you were right. When you put together the list, the legislative failures which stands in contrast to every other resent president who did make progress early on towards legislation. Even bill clinton who famously failed on healthcare got that really important budget deal that raised taxes and helped lead to the bond market rally. And you look at the Approval Ratings. He got welfare reformulate in his first term. So you look at President Trumps last legislative accomplishment, the scandal which seems to have some real substance to it even if we dont yet know how much. And his Approval Ratings and not only that but the extent to which members of his own party are willing to buck him as weve seen in the last couple days. Hes coming up in the sixth month mark of his presidency and i do not think we have seen a First Six Months of a presidency in our lifetime that has been less successful than this six months. I guess i would add republicans