billions of dollars, which then you use to pay for universal child care, universal pre-k, expanding medicare and combatting climate change. >> tester is interesting because he's an interesting player in there. next to manchin, he probably represents the most conservative state but is much less of a kind of caucus contrarian than manchin is. manchin is for his own thing, but working for bernie, what is the approach here because you need all 50 to agree on a number and what's actually in it. >> well, the problem is, chris, we've been having a fake negotiation. we've been in this for months and months and months, and at this point you would think if you're on the other side of bernie or whatever, you would have a proposal. yet the surprising thing from manchin and sinema is there is no proposal. you're negotiating with a shadow. it's very hard to have, quote,