pence conferred with him for advice. he had retired, he had been a appeals courts, i rock ribbed conservative, not squeamish at all, a federal society guy. he's one of the people who told mike pence, no, absolutely not, under no circumstances can you unilaterally overturn a election. he came up with an op-ed on this, he interviewed a politico, what do you think about what we have learned about ludwig's consultation with mike pence, and about how fortunate we were that that was consultation he had? >> 100 percent, this is a really remarkable story, i'm really happy you're asking about it, i've known judge ludwig for 30 years, he's one of the most conservative people i know, he's one of the two or three kind of stalwart conservative judges over the last 30 years and yet it turns out that he had a back channel to mike pence, during those