shows. when the moderator says you're out of time he just stops. whereas if you had a point -- when kamala has a point, she keeps talking. >> but the contrast. when you think back, why was joe biden vice president in the first place? why did barack obama turn to him in 2008? one of the reasons. you remember the democratic debates in 2007, 2008, biden stole the show at half of them. he was impressive and the obama campaign saw something in that. is this a politician -- is he in prevent defense. is he there to avoid giving up the big play. >> like the speaker of the house is doing on impeachment. no, it's a great question because i think biden actually worked for the white working class guy. he was -- as i always say, he put the apostrophe in obama. he made him one of the boys. he wasn't an intellectual like obama. i'm not sure voters want that kind of character as their standard bearer.