but there is some recent research i think is really interesting, and it shows that anti-vaccine sentiment and movements really go along with right wing populism and those two things go hand in hand. so we saw trump sowing doubts of vaccines and relating them back to autism when he was running back in 2016. now you add a pandemic, social media, viral diinformation and you start to get to the moment we're in. >> right, right. ben, this march here in washington on sunday, this very normal looking website and they use terms like medical freedom. explain to us how these groups whitewash their message. >> yeah, they're not going to say they're an anti-vaccine march. in fact, if you say that right now on television these people would be very angry at you for calling this an anti-vaccine march. first of all, it's a messaging strategy. there are people in their lives they know got the vaccine. they don't want to alienate those people. they want to bring those people