2022 now its time for the last word with lawrence odonnell. Good evening, lawrence. Okay, rachel, first of all it is not weird at all. You have done two hours now, two consecutive nights and that set up where we all were used to it at the end of minute one of last night. So, i mean, you can keep talking about it, but its just you, everyone else is just taking in the show as usual. You are very kind to say that. Last night, i had the audio so screwed up, it was totally me trying to do it myself. I sounded like i had a kazoo wedged in my with pipe or the first 15 minutes of the show. Until somebody was finally like you need to spin the dial about 180 degrees. And i was finally able to talk through sound like it wasnt beamed in from mars. But you are being very nice to me in any way. To me in any way. Rachel, it is now 3 01 am in ireland where Patrick Murphy lives, the leader of the Irish Fishermen who got my guy. But ive got Vladimir Putin to say your guy. The story that you delivered to this network. And with your permission which we prewired, of course, Patrick Murphy is going to join us at the end of the hour tonight. But because of the ridiculous time in ireland, we pretaped it a little while ago. Yeah, which was also helpful because, you know, the irish, they can go on and on. Its not but it doesnt there is no easy conclusion of the conversation. You can only say this because urinal donald. Do not wrote me into this. Im a mad. Oh i cannot be part of this conversation. So were just were just going to share you a wee bit of it. A we six minutes or so of what it couldve been. Im going to get off the air with you right now and i am going to hack into your staff system to watch that tape because i cannot wait until the end of the hour. Watching right now. Okay. By. But im gonna go back to system. Bye. But today we learned that new Mexico Democratic senator freshman senator, ben ray lujan, is recovering from a stroke that he suffered last week. Senator lujan is 49 years old and expected to fully recover. I think we might all know people who were in similar situations and fully recovered. He might be back at work in the senate by the time President Biden actually announces his choice for the next Supreme Court justice which the president has said will be by the end of this month. Senator lujan is not a member of the Judiciary Committee so his vote for the nominee of the Supreme Court will only be needed on the senate floor. And that Confirmation Vote will happen at least a month after the president announces his nominee. So that vote is at least two months away. Thats plenty of time. For senator lujan to return to the senate Floor To Cast will be his very first Senate Confirmation vote for a Supreme Court justice. But in the meantime, the democrats have only 49 senators on the floor. Chuck schumer has been the Majority Leader of a 50 50 senate. Longer than anyone in history. President biden has accomplished more with a 50 50 senate than any president in history has accomplished with an evenly divided senate. But while senator lujan is recovering, those senators 49 democrats cannot pass any legislation without republican support. Democrats have been elected to the senate in ten states with republican governors. If one of those Democratic Senators had to be replaced, the replacement would not be a democrat. And Mitch Mcconnell would instantly become the Majority Leader of the senate. Such is the extreme fragility of that the democrats hold on a 50 50 senate. And such is the extreme fragility of the very sanity of American Government. It hangs now on a 50 50 senate. This government becomes something else. Instantaneously. If we lose one democrats senator, that is where the fragility of the government stands tonight. And on the breaking news of the night, the New York Times is reporting that the january six committee, quote, is scrutinizing former president donald j trumps involvement in proposals to seize Voting Machines after the 2020 election, including efforts to create a legal basis for directing National Security agencies to take extreme action, according to three people with knowledge of the committees activities. Congressman adam schiff was a member of the committee he said, we want to fully flesh out the facts. How close did this come to being operationalized . What kind of pushback did they receive . Who was a part of this particular scheme . We want to answer all those questions. Last night, at this hour, the New York Times was reporting that donald trump was more involved in the plan to seize Voting Machines that he previously revealed. And tonights reporting adds significantly to that. According to that donald trump told giuliani to quote, ask the department of Homeland Security if it could legally take control of Voting Machines and key swing states. Kenneth t cuccinelli the second the acting deputy secretary, said no. Giuliani was also told to approach the Attorney General quote, raising with Attorney General william barr the question of whether the Justice Department would seize machines, a quiery that mr. Barr rejected. It reveals how porous the trump west wing was. How in secure it was, including on a normally highly controlled, highly secure issue of who is allowed to enter the west wing. On december 18th, 2020 a junior staffer let michael flynn, and attorney sydney powell, enter the west wing. And according to the New York Times, quote, eventually they got close enough to the oval office that mr. Trump saw them and called them in take control of Voting Machines and for miss power to be appointed a Special Counsel overseeing election integrity. The times quotes white House Counsel as shouting in that scene, he does not have the authority to do this. Leading off our discussion tonight is neal katyal msnbc legal analyst. Neil i want to go to one word, one word that appears in these New York Times reports. Both last night and tonight. And that is donald trump asking if they could legally seize the Voting Machines. According to this reporting, the question is, can we legally do this . How much how important is that one word that president according to these accounts in those scenes is indicating that he wants to do it if its legal . Yeah, i think the entire story is remarkable and it would be investing in our practice to ignore trumps role in office. I think the most important thing about talking about this legally, it bears is all of these events have happened at his behest. We wouldnt have these news reports from the New York Times, we wouldnt have the january six committee, we would have multiple criminal investigations, if trump just accepted the outcome like the nine other losing incumbents before him. So whats the New York Times story ties together is it pins three aspects. First, trump wanted to use the machinery of government to control the outcome of an election, and thats kind of kim jongil style. Thats dictatorial. Second, who gets to carry the south . Rudy giuliani who helped get him impeached in the first time around, and rudy is not exactly someone known for his diplomacy or his tact or his lawyering. He is no jean baker. So you have to feel bad for trump, thats all he could get. And then third, we now have this trump issued a command to try to do this. His defense for the last year has been, hey, i was just exploring my options, i havent decided anything. But this news those a hole in the defense that trump had. Oh i had made up my mind its all just speculation. You just have to ask, where does all this stop between the draft Executive Orders the john eastman memos every document that comes out is like of a voice over saying, and then someone had a worse idea. You know, on this point legally there are plenty of people in Prison Tonight who asked the question of there accountant can i do this legally . And on the kind of someone else said no, you cant, and they did it anyway. So the fact that donald trump is asking, can we do it legally doesnt tell you whether he was willing to do it illegally . Absolutely. You have to be frankly, deluded if you want to ask that question. Is illegal for president to seize Voting Machines and make a National Security finding or Something Like that . Of course the answer has to be no. Its a preposterous question. I want to go to something that developed over the weekend which is donald trump in this unprecedented stunning thing that he is so famous for doing, basically promising pardons, hundreds, possibly thousands of pardons for people who attacked the capitol on january six, one of the lawyers representing one of the leaders of the capital so had something to say about the pardons today. Lets listen to this. If you vote for me and support me, that can be a problem legally for him and there is some people from january 6th. Hes talking about a case by case basis as an individual review, i think i would support that. There are january six defendants who have publicly said that they think trump shouldve done more for them. He couldve pardoned some of them before he left office in january 6th of last year. There are some grumbling and feeling that they abandoned him. I think yes to be diplomatic here. But i dont. But the president did, dangling pardons, is potentially criminal. And the very fact that hes admitting the pardons have to be issued, you can only pardon if someone has committed a crime. So i think it implicitly suggest that crimes are being committed. If you dangle pardons out with the investigation before, we also know from reporting this weekend that trump literally tore up the memos that he was getting and she fought through them on the floor. The memo says that he would seize the Voting Booths and Voting Machines and things like that. I guess we finally learned what happened to Donald TrumpsCollege Transcripts from this kind of behavior. Its potentially criminal. In fact, there is entire statute of president ial records which is all about the fact that you cant destroy these documents. Theyre important for law enforcement, for functioning of the government, and for trans missions of power which is done but donald trump tried to stop. And i just, and he was disappointed that he lost the election by millions of votes. But the american thing to do when you lose an election is every incumbent before him is to accept that loss. I was a Junior Lawyer at bush versus gore, i was heartbroken. But al gore did exactly the right thing. Donald trump has done exactly the wrong thing. Its dictatorial its putinesque neil katyal, thank you so much for starting out our discussion tonight. Joining us now is Steve Schmidt of is cofounder of the lincoln project. Steve, i began tonight with a new note about the fragility of American Government and that is this unfortunate situation where the democratic senator, 49 year old man, healthy man, suffered a stroke. Its gonna take him out for a few weeks. But for those few weeks, the democrats will not actually in truth have the Majority Working in the senate. Theyll have 49 senators. And here we see tonights New York Times reporting about the fragility of this government with someone in the oval office who was talking about seizing Voting Machines around the country. It is an extraordinary story. And by the time we get to the end of it, more and more were going to know fully know who did what and when they did it. Well know exactly what happened here. And i think its important to understand, and i really dont know the answer to that. If Ken Cuccinelli says yes, we can do that. What happens next . Where was the next Circuit Breaker in the process before military actually seized these Voting Machines . The entire american experiment, as has been the case from day one, has always been vesting in the faith and belief of the people in the system. And when you have a country where 35 , 40 of the population wont accept the result of an election, where you have constant intimations of violence, when you have an Autocratic Movement steeped in Conspiracy Theories and non stop lying for the purposes of gaining power, you are on a knifes edge in a democracy. And thats where this country is. So, the lawyers representing these january six defendants are now very interested in what donald trump has had to say about pardons if he becomes president again. And by the way, steve, one of the things i was struck by was the way donald trump said that. He said, if i run, which was one if. And then there was a second if, which was, if i win. Which was not a standard trump style of saying that. Normally he would be saying Something Like, of course, i will win if its a fair election, if they dont steal it. But in his own mind and the way he phrased it, hes raising more doubts than i think a lot of observance in the media have. I think the bottom line, lawrence, as we analyze him, he is a very powerful political figure in this country. He is the leader of an Autocratic Movement in this country. He is the republican front runner. In fact, he is likely the de facto nominee. He has the power to kill with a whisper, with a word. We have his accolades all over the country involved in the incitement of violence and spreading of a conspiracy. And when we see these details, when the 6th Committee ultimately holds hearings, i hope in prime time, well see the full extent of this conspiracy. And thats exactly what it was, it was a conspiracy to take Power Illegitimately. It was an american coup, because some of the characters are buffoonish and clownish does not lessen the severity of what happened. And unless this is met with severe consequences, were doomed to see this repeated likely with people who are smarter, more capable, and more sinister. But a dam has broken and that dam held back this impulse, because in Americas National life, weve always had an agreement about how we portion power. And trump is trying to shatter that, to break it. And hes convinced an awful lot of people in this country to take a walk on whats foundational to the functioning of american democracy. We have to face that, we have to reconciles ourselves to it, we have to deal with both the malice and the cowardice of a political party, a Republican Party, thats allowed this to happen. It has put the country into this terrible quandary. Steve, as we go forward in the investigation, it seems unusual it has an unusual shape to me at this point, because whenever ive seen investigations of mafia king pins, it is always moving from the outside and getting closer. They get the informer and then they get wiretaps, they eventually get the big guy. This is one of those investigations where we seem to know exactly what the big guy did, what the big guy wanted, and what the investigation is going to give us is what every one else was doing. And as you put it, where the Circuit Breakers were, who were the people who said no . Who were the people who stopped what he was trying to do all the time . This was a story where we have not yet gotten to, i think, in the conversation what the worst Case Scenario was. What was it . Was it american soldiers seizing Voting Machines . Was it the person who lost declaring himself the winner . Was the plan to get to these boxes on january six to scatter the electors, to substitute the fake elector ballots . As absurd as it is, the motive here matters a great deal. How wellplanned was the ballots . You can go back to the debate where donald trump said to the proud boys and these groups, stand back, stand ready, lock and load. Thats exactly what they did. They waited for the command, trump gave the command on the sixth, and a mob attacked the capitol in one of the most disgraceful acts in american history. These people, these criminals, who are being sentenced by the droves, who are pleading guilty, the seditionists, the idea that a former president of the United States seeks to establish a martyrdom for actually a criminal who lost her wife and the desecration on assault on american democracy. That these people would be heralded by a former president as heroic, as patriots, when theyre the exact opposite is deeply alarming. But more so, is the concept th