obviously they've invaded two countries in their region in the last decade, but they've also engaged in cyber attacks here with solar winds and interfered in elections, not only ours but others as well. these cyber attacks if they're russia-backed could be some of the opening shots fired in a campaign by russia against ukraine. i think russia has said that their attack against ukraine and against the west is going to be asymmetric. this is part and parcel of modern warfare, the cyber realm, and we have to be proo e paired not just to deter but react and counteract. >> let me ask you that. we know president biden has warned more than once, putin, hey, knock it off, these cyber attacks. they're continuing. just what could be the response to nato allies to what ukraine is claiming? >> i think some will be seen and some will be unseen, but i think it involves the full spectrum of