Bring us any news youre hearing on this rather remarkable headline, ashley parker. Jared kushner, the president s soninlaw, has been under scrutiny since minutes after the election was won for i think his very earliest contacts with foreign governments, as he sought to fill out all the background forms that anyone going to work in the white house fills out. The sf86. The more extensive form, its been amend ed countless times. His clearance attorney, jamie gerelik, who was a very senior democrat at the doj, has departed him. Hes now represented by abbe lowell in the special counsel investigation. Hes someone at the center of every controversy facing this white house. Hes also at the center of every ambitious Foreign Policy goal that this president has. Today he has been stripped of the security clearance that permitted him to read the most sensitive piece of intel inside that west wing. The president ial daily brief. Huge news for this white house. Thats right. It is huge news. You know, something were racing to get a story up on, like everybody else, but basically, this was someone who had an interim security clearance, as we all discussed, and there is general kelly was going to make a ruling on friday that if you had this interim, you basically couldnt continue on and then there was a sense that there might be some sort of special carveout for Jared Kushner. Obviously, we now know that is not the case. He is downgraded to secret which is, again, i have too admit, im not an expert on the varying levels of clearance, but sort of a deeply lower level that really does not give you access to that sort of classified information. Again, to put it in context, this is someone who came in with such a large portfolio that there ended up being a punch line among his detractors, you know, the vending machines broken, well, jared will handle it. Just next week, Bibi Netanyahu is arriving in washington, d. C. , and one of the issues that kushner is tasked with handling is peace in the middle east. Its an open question now how the security clearance demotion will affect his ability to do that. Heportfolio, has canada in his portfolio, has china in his portfolio and the white house has sort of claimed he can still do the job hes always done but its sort of hard to understand how that is actually the case in practical terms. Juan, if you take the Foreign Policy headlines that Jared Kushner has made, he was the liaison with the chinese who were familiar with dealing with a political family. Hes been one of the intermediaries in saudi arabia in the uae. He has dealt primarily with governments, used to doing family business, but that is not the american way. And what seems to have come to a dramatic collision here is general kellys desire to have some order. Some adherence to some norms. And the norm in this country is that people like you and fill out our background forms and the fbi determines whether or not we are a blackmail risk to the United States of america. It seems that as of today, Jared Kushner has not passed that test yet. Well, youre right, nicolle, hes played a seminal role in Foreign Policy, the face and voice of the white house and thats parent, obvioimportant,. What this means is he cant see topsecret information. He has a secret clearance still. Hes not completely hobbled. As you say, what this does is signals that general kehl willy imposing a discipline on the clearance process. Whats interesting here is the process hasnt sought to intervene which is good. Demonstrates the president adhering to the internal discipline. Theres a question, nicolle, for whether or not of purposes of particular issues, for particular meetings, the president could make an exception and allow jared to see particular information that might be critical to that particular meeting or set of meetings. But youre right that he has been a critical voice on what are some of the most important Foreign Policy object if ives f the country and for those purposes you want people to have access to as much information as possible. Information about the context. Information about the individuals youll be dealing with. And information about the negotiations that are under way in each of those contexts. Especially when youre talking about secretive societies or those with whom were playing highstakes poker like the chinese, you certainly want lead negotiators or key interlocutors to having a ske ing access to t best information the u. S. Government has available. And right now given this downgra downgrade, it appears jared wont have access to that. Let me put you on the spot, juan zarate, should Jared Kushner ever have had access to the pdb . H. Well, again, the pdb is the president s. The president dictates not only the form and the content that he wants in it, provided by the intelligence community, but who then gets access to it. When i was in the white house, i would get access to parts if not all of it, depending on what president bush wanted to provide, so it really depends on the president s prerogative. There is a question, and this is a longerterm question, of whether or not jared will ultimately get his topsecret clearance or if the investigations under way or if other elements of the Background Investigation are so prejudicial that hes never going to be able to get that clearance again and if thats the case, then you have to ask, you know, should he have had access before . But certainly the president s in his prerogative to provide that information and given the role that jared has been playing, you would want him to have access to if not parts of the pdb, then elements of things he was working on that were relevant out of the pdb. So i wouldnt completely fault the president or the process for that, but now that hes no longer let me interrupt you. Cleared then you have to reconsider this. Juan, how do you defend a process that had the most sensitive intelligence that exists in the United States of america in the hands of someone who not only hadnt cleared an fbi background check but was informed he likely wouldnt . If the rob porter scandal hadnt been made public, the white house never would have told us who was on i mean, we only know that Jared Kushner was looking at the nations most sensitive secrets. We should remind people why you saw it. You were the Homeland Security adviser. You saw it because it was your job to run an interagency process to protect us from another 9 11 in the years of 9 11. That was your job. You had a reason to see it. Jared kushner hadnt passed his background check, he hadnt been deemed to not be a threat for blackmail by the fbi which is the hurdle you have to pass. The fbi does not pass judgment on your character, what kind of businessperson you were. Their standard is whether or not you could be a blackmail risk for the United States of america. So i hear you, youre making a policy argument, but im not buying it. He did not it was not in the countrys interest for someone with so many Unanswered Questions and questions that we never would have known about if they hadnt so brazenly allowed rob porter, an accused wife beater, to be handling classified information. Are you not at all concerned about how this white house has dealt with classified information . No, obviously you want discipline around this process. I think the delay around this is troubling, and youre right that if it hadnt been publicly exposed, we may not be having this discussion. But what im trying to the argument im trying to make is in the initial days when white house staff is getting cleared through the process, when they all legitimately have interim clearances and theyre being tasked with serious portfolios, you do want them to have access to information so at a certain point, if its clear that an individuals not going to be able to get that clearance, of course, then you dont want them to have access to sensitive information, but what im trying to say is at the start, you want american officials, and he is an american official on behalf of the white house and the president , you want them to be well informed and well armed with as much information as possible. He now doesnt have that at his command, and that will now weigh on what his responsibilities are and how the president deploys him zb him. So, jonathan, if john kelly was trying to make the case that the family is making a mess of the white house, he had ivanka trump saying that she wouldnt answer a question about whether or not Donald Trumps more than i think he has 19 credible accusers whove accused him of sexual misconduct, she wouldnt weigh in on whether or not they were telling the truth after having no problem of weighing in on roy moores accusers, no problem weighing in on other milestones of the me too movement. She played the daughter card. Youve got Jared Kushner whos been stripped of a clearance. Its questionable. I understand what juans saying, hes saying while a normal background check was going on, people need to be able to do their jobs. A normal background check does not last 14 months for the president s most senior officials. Juans im sure was done in half that time. So where does the standoff between the family and the kelly wing of the west wing stand . I mean, theres certainly been a growing rivalry between these two camps in recent months. Chief of staff kelly has told people close to him that hes, you know, not totally sure on day to day what jared, ivanka, are doing in the white house. Certainly when he first came into the position, one of his first moves was really try to establish clear lanes for them, restrict their access even to the oval office which is ivankas case means access to her own father. And as weve gone forward here, you know, the Kushner Ivanka trump camp has grown frustrated with some of these restrictions and have, you know, have moved at times to try to undermine the chief of staffs power. But lets also remember, you mentioned rob porter which is how we suddenly have all those talked about clearances in the last couple weeks. Its been john kelly whos been on the spot in recent weeks. He was his grasp on his job became extremely tenuous in the last week or so. And only now, you know, with a little bit of cooling off period, he seems to have at least for the most be in place and he now has scored, if youre going to look at it as a rivalry within the west wing, a victory here. Just attention. Thats exactly right. It comes at a time, you know, lets remember the fall for Jared Kushner here, when he first came into the white house, you know, along with chief of staff then Reince Priebus and steve bannon, couple very powerful camps, he told others he was the first among equals. Now hes the one whos lost his clearance. Ashley parker, i know you got to jump. I can see the steam coming out of your phone from here. But you dropped a story, this is one of those days where we rewrote our lead a few times. You dropped a story about one of someone who isnt a household name in america, but anyone who covers this white house knows josh, Senior Communications aide leaving the white house for a combination of personal reasons and geographic reasons. He was the mouthpiece of the press aide that dealt specifically with the outsize number of press inquiries for jared and ivanka. Talk about the significance of his departure and what it intersects with both in the Mueller Probe and in the arc of jared and ivankas political fate there. Sure. So the person who left is josh raffel and he is not known to the outside world. He is a very wellknown to any reporter whos written a jared or ivanka story. He he sort of aggressively argues for every word and he left today basically as you said for a combination of family reasons that are real, and also hes sort of been here a year. I will say as we wrote in our story before this jared news that his departure was certain to launch sort of palace intrigue and conspiracy theories as to why he was leaving, what he knew was coming, why now might be a good time to get out. And, again, we cant say for certain that his departure today is correlated to anything thats coming but we can say that he is leaving at a time when Jared Kushner is under an increased level of scrutiny. Its for, obviously, the security clearance issue. Its for his contacts with foreign nationals and foreign governments throughout the campaign, during the transition, and in the white house. Again, there hasnt necessarily been alleged wrongdoing that we know of yet but we understand this is something that mueller is looking into and it comes at a time when kushner is clashing and has, as john was talking about, increased tension with chief of staff john kelly. So its a very precarious time for Jared Kushner and, you know, from a comments perspective, may be a good time for josh raffel to get out and probably a time hes desperately needed within the west wing. Ashley parker, i know you have is to jump, i see you jumping out of your chair. Thank you. Promise if you drop anything, sit back in the chair and share it us first. Thank you. Jonathan, i have to say, i cover this white house like you cover this white house. What ashley describes is exactly how josh does his job. Thats part of the job thats normal. Youre supposed to fight about every single word. Hes one of the straight shooters in this white house. Hes accessible. He does fight about every story, but when its over, he goes on to fight another day. He returns your phone calls in the news cycle. I think hell be missed. Yeah. Ive been on the receiving end of those angry phone calls that ashley described. No question josh raffel is a pro. There have been times when there havent been that many of them working in the trying to get people to return your phone calls in a timely manner. He was not on the campaign. He has ties to the trump family. He has ties to hope hicks, when he came into the white house about a year ago. Hes someone it was sort of an unusual arrangement that to have for Jared Kushner and ivanka trump to have their own spokesperson in the white house. There really werent any soothe senior aides who had that. He is someone, though, who has taken owenn a larger and larger role in recent month. Hes worked for gary cohn. Hes worked for others, key players in the white house at times. And he is someone whose name, though hes far from a household name, he is a name who has suddenly cropped up in a couple important matters relating to the russia probe in recent months, that he was involved in sort of crafting initial response to that meeting in trump tower and he was someone who was involved in the letter dictated on air force one. Right. Both things that are on bob muellers radar. So hes not here to speak for himself, so philip bump, i would say the first time i think we covered him on this program when was his name was shared with the white house and list of i think six aides and what they had in common was they were that group of aides aboard air force one when the phony cover story was given to the press in response to inquiries about don jr. s meeting with russians in trump tower. He was it came out in your papers reporting and others, he was on the side of more transparency. We know from mark carrallos count in fire and fury, that hope hicks and the president prevailed, said it will never get out, just say it was about adoption. So the press staff, i have to say, having been a press staffer, you are in charge of some of the most insignificant things like which tie your boss wears, to some of most seismic things like, like, you know, personal and professional. So, you know, when you look at a white house under investigation by a special counsel, you look at a white house, hope hicks is up on capitol hill today before a committee, every Single Person has, you know, a ripple effect. What do you think the ripple effects are of both kushner losing those clearances today and kushner and ivanka losing their top spokesman . As my colleague, ashley, said, it certainly is easy to sort of delve into this world of conspiracy theory, what does this all mean, why is it all happening now . Which is totally fair, particularly given the position that the Mueller Investigation, itself, is in. Right. Hes sort of wrapped up the whole manafort wing of it, the Russian Media which is the campaign wing. Exactly. Its his entry into the campaign wing. There are still these outstanding questions about the role that Jared Kushner played, about this potential obstruction which wasnt just in Michael Wolffs book, it was reported by the New York Times that hope hicks said this thing. These are significant questions. Its also important to remember Jared Kushner was always in a weird space. Hes not paid. Not a paid staffer. Hes sort of the soninlaw of the president who got special clearance to come work in the white house. Hes always been in a weird position doing a weird job. Kelly last week sort of stuck a shiv in his back saying he can still do what hes been doing without the topsecret clearance which everyone interpreted as something of a dig. Its not really clear what kushner does. All of that said, though, because kushner is such an oddity in the white house, its sort of hard to say what will happen next because its always hard to say what will happen next in the Trump White House. Let me just respond a little bit to the idea that kelly was digging at kushner. There is a very, very hot war going on with the jared and ivanka surrogates disparaging the kelly wing of the white house, throwing all of the rob porter scandal at the feet of john kelly, his deputy joe hagan, my former white house colleague. So theres plenty i mean, i guess, juan zarate, this place is still a snake pit. Do you hear anything different . Thanks, nicolle. No, i mean, you and i have friends who work inside there, and obviously theyre doing their best. I think, you know, what you have is obviously the external pressure and the gaze of the media, you know, and the probe of