In excerpts from 60 minutes to which they had the press secretary issue a vitriol statement, on a day a judge in the Paul Manafort ruled as the special Counsel Office contended, Paul Manafort intentionally lied while he was under cooperation of special agreement with the office, on the day the story led the newscast, the president has punked the nation, taking the white house hostage. The president announced the president will declare a National Emergency to fund his wall, the Wall Congress will not agree to fund in a bipartisan agreement they made to avoid a shutdown. Trump also said when he will fund and bill what he saw this week makes him sad. Peter baker, let me read the lead story in the New York Times, you write, President Trump plans to declare a imagine emergency to bypass congress and build his longpromised wall around the border, even as he signs a spending bill that does not fund it. Remove effect stivly a twomonth attrition between the president and congress that closed the government for 35 days and facing a second shutdown as early as friday. But it could instigate a new constitutional clash over who controls the federal purse. Peter . Yeah, this is a big move by the president , one he telegraphed in recent days. Hes overriding objections not just from democrats, Nancy Pelosis already said this is an end run around congress, but also from republicans like Mitch Mcconnell, who personally went to the white house a few days back and warned the president against exactly this kind of move. Even conservatives who support the president on the border wall are worried at the idea of declaring a National Emergency will set a precedent to allow a future liberal president to do things bypassing congress on things like Climate Change or gun control or issues republicans care about as well. This is a big decision by the president. One that will probably end up in the courts at some point. Peter baker the program last night, sean hannity either not in the loop or this decision another example of Donald Trumps white house flailing in full view. Any reporting on when this decision came in to formation and ready to announce . Well, you know, he just got the bill at the end of last night, the white house did. They were studying it. Its more than 1,000 pages. They were very concerned about what they call land mines in the bill. There are provisions in there the white house doesnt like. For instance, giving local governments a lot more say basically on this border any border fencing, any kind of barrier put up along the border. The white house was very upset about that. There had been some concern on the part of people that wanted him to sign it that he wouldnt do it. He would find some other way to keep the government open for the continuing resolution while fighting this out even longer. Clearly Mitch Mcconnell, who announced this decision by the president on the senate floor, was pushing the president into making a decision, announcing it before the vote, so he could lock in a favorable vote by his republican caucus. He didnt want his republicans caught out voting for a bill the president wasnt going to sign. Peter baker, you and your colleagues did extraordinary reporting around the last shutdown and it ended when more republicans signed onto the democratic bill than were enthusiastic about the republican bill, which included border funding. Is the white house sort of woken up to the reality when it comes to funding the border wall, theyve lost the battle over the hearts and minds of the republican caucus, at least in the senate . Well, they are frustrated with the republican allies, the president is obviously. He expressed that in recent days. Hes taken some of his ire out on paul ryan, who is no longer there. He was the House Speaker until the gypping of this year but he blames paul ryan for promising to get money for the wall and not delivering it. Last year when the republicans controlled the house, and now its in control of nancy pelosi and democrats so the idea they were going to do something that paul ryans republicans werent can going to do was always a stretch. I think hes frustrated with republicans as much as hes angry with the democrats at this point. What is the case that will be articulated in an Emergency Declaration when the flow of Illegal Immigrants over the border wall is at a 40year low . Yeah, thats a good question. In fact, of course, if its an emergency now, why wasnt it an emergency five years ago or ten years ago . The numbers dont support the idea its something extraordinary happenli extraordinary happening now that hasnt in the past. On the other hand, there was a law passed by congress in the 70s, National Emergencies act, that does give the president s ability to declare emergencies in some circumstances. There are currently 31 National Emergencies still in operation, declared by this president or his predecessors. So its not an unusual thing in that sense. Whats unusual is using this legislation to move money around like hes planning to do. Most national declarations are about freezing property of people from dictatorial countries that are in the middle of a bad war, that kind of thing, sanctions in effect. This is an unusual step in the fact hes trying to win through a National Emergency declaration what he could not win through a policy fight with congress. That will be an argument that goes to the courts, can he do something on his own authority that congress basically told him no, they wouldnt authorize. What is the legal argument . I imagine the White House Counsels Office has been background briefing reporters and laying out the legal case. I think there are real questions. I worked in the white house for six years, and im not sure what authority the white house has for appropriating funds for a border wall. There is an argument, we interviewed in the past legal experts who say theres an arguable case, anyway, the president can do this under the legislation thats currently on the books but its not a slam dunk and its definitely something a lot of other experts say is subject to challenge. It will depend on which judges take a look. If it gets in the Supreme Court, of course, right now theres a 54 split among conservative appoint e s and liber appoint and if it comes to that, he could get authorization for it. Its too early to say. They had been looking and studying this. We dont know if theres a Justice Department olc, office of legal counsel, opinion on it. But White House Press secretary Sarah Huckabee sanders came out a few minutes ago and said theyre prepared for any legal challenge that might be instituted against it. Never the sign of a good rollout when youre prepared for a court fight. Thank you, peter baker. We will keep an eye on your tweet and feeds. Come back in the next 55 minutes if you have anything new. Joining our conversation from the the Washington Post aaron blake. With us at the table, chuck rosenberg, former u. S. Attorney who worked under Robert Mueller and james comey at the fbi. Rick stangel is back, former undersecretary of state for public diplomacy, nick confessore, reporter from the New York Times and Senior Adviser to move joon. Org. I have to start with you. I feel like when i feel the pangs of what used to be, and you feel them intensely as i do. If you wanted a border wall and you were president of the United States, it would be your prerogative to build support among your own party and get that support to transfer to members of congress, house and senate who would support legislation, funding a wall. He failed on that front. Hes failing all day, every day in full view and now on a day when theres two stories we know he loathes more than loathes, fears. He does this. What do you think . Just a coincidence, nicolle, right . Heres the thing about the shutdown that we just endured, that was 35 days of utter fecklessness. You put people in great financial jeopardy, its upsetting, its demoralizing, it makes our government inefficient. Occasionally it is inefficient on its own. It doesnt always need help. But its a terrible disservice to the folks who work in the United States government and sit ze zens they serve. Now hes going to declare a National Emergency. Theres some legislative support for that. Theres some theres tolerance for it. Mitch mcconnell has actually warned him against it. Tolerance for it is a better word but its not clear to me hes going to win this legal fight because appropriations are manifestly the province of the congress and hes taking that from them. I dont want to gloss over that. Peter baker talked about, you have a really bad case if youre banking on the 54 breakdown on the Supreme Court the day you announce a policy. But the law is pretty clear, the appropriators are not at 1600 pennsylvania avenue, theyre at the other end. You learn that like on sesame street or pbs. Its article one of the constitution, the appropriating powers are vested in the congress of the United States. And so this should not be a political issue on the hill. Republicans and democrats ought to think carefully about what the constitution says about their authority and how they feel about a president , any president usurping that. Rick stangel, this also as a new York Magazine editor, if youre going to put a story on the front page, if you were going to put andy mccabes face on the front page and you woke up as a white house dealing with the president s booming rage and vitriolic tweets about andy mccabe. If you read this mornings newspaper analysis about the ruling in the manafort case, you have more evidence that a judge, impartial judge, is siding with the kinds of arguments being made by Andrew Weissmann, the lead prosecutor in the mueller case, youve got a president out of his mind being called a weenie by ann coulter, what do you do if ann coulter thinks youre a weenie in you would declare a National Emergency. What would you put on the front page, National Emergency andy mccabe or manafort . National emergency because its a true issue. He pumped the country and we fall for it . The constitution originally said congress has the power to declare an emergency. In the 1976 Emergencies Act congress ceded that to the president. Since 1976 the president declared 31 emergencies which congress has not actually done anything about. The bill said Congress Every six months has to review a National Emergency and they havent done it once. What this is all about, i think, and we may see a positive result, is congress having its own power threatened by unilateral abuse of power by the president to do something which congress doesnt really want him to do. The courts really dont have much say about the president declaring a National Emergency. That legislation gave the president an extraordinary power. But Congress Looking at the usurpation of its own power can say, you know what, mr. President , this is not a real emergency. Its not an emergency by any definition and were going to annul what your declaration of National Emergency since. I dont want to gloss over this either, youre blowing my mind here. You think this is an example of abuse of power . We talk about him praising autocrats and lurches towards autocratic tropes and attacks by the president. But i think this is using his executive powers in an abusive way . Yes, its clear abuse of power. If you look at this legislation, even autocratic countries have a more circumscribed declaration of an emergency by the president since the 1976 act. Congress could amendment it in and realtime nullify his declaration of emergency. No one ever accused me of leading with a substance. Lets get to the substance of this. The substance of this is a loser too. In a normal white, andly stop maybe at your three comparing him to a normal white house but a normal white house would say because of my language on immigration, illegal immigration is at a 40year low and im proud of that. You would put it on your marketing materials, squeeze it on the back of a maga hat or whatever the athletic they they. Only donald trump would ply about a Success Story to build a fake wall with money that isnt his. Somewhere the fool somewhere. The tool here is fear as a politician. The basic tool in the tool kit is find a fear in people and stir it up. This act is a giant punt. Senator mcconnell is holding the football and President Trump is kicking. Its a way of taking the problem away from the senate and away from the gop and putting it over there in the courts so its someone elses problem. Unfortunately in the process, it may create a huge constitutional crisis. If congress hasnt got the power of the purse, it doesnt have power. You and i watched nancy pelosi before the show. I want to show that to our you vooers and we will talk about it on the other side. You want to talk about a National Emergency, lets talk about today, the oneyear anniversary of another manifestation of the epidemic of gun violence in america. Thats a National Emergency. Why dont you declare that emergency, mr. President . I wish you would. I know republicans have unease about it no matter what they say because if the president can declare an emergency on something that hes created as an emergency, its an illusion he wants to convey, just think of what a president with different values can present to the american people. Shes right. Hes setting a bad precedent by doing this. We heard from republicans for the past two weeks while this was going on after the shutdown, after they reopened the government, was if donald trump were to do this, what happens when a democratic president is there . And they do a National Emergency, maybe for Climate Change. He is setting a bad precedent and republicans know that. But Mitch Mcconnells standing there on the floor of the senate saying hey, you know what, i support this when we know he doesnt. We know he does not want this to happen. And what hes doing is hes handing over the keys to the president. It is a coequal branch of government. The congress is. And its just shameful. Theres no National Emergency, at least not with this border wall that we all know from experts is a failed policy, a humanitarian crisis what we are seeing at the border but not a National Emergency. Its shameful. Its abuse of power and its blatantly unconstitutional. Aaron politic, can you jump in on the two threads of what were grappling with here in the 4 00 p. M. Hour . Sort of the headlines this white house woke up to, their known aversion to acknowledging any victories in the courtroom for the mueller prosecutors, which yesterday was a clear one in the manafort case. The president s possible field with andy mccabe and i know the spin is its a good fight for him. Its not a good fight. This is the man the vast majority of americans will view as a Public Servant who got his wires crossed with the president and is now telling his story after paying the ultimate price, losing his job, having his wife slandered and now facing more legal problems. The president also with his back up against the wall being called a weenie by ann coulter and other right wing nuts. What do you make of the move today . What we are seeing is an escape hatch. I think one of the guests referred to as a punt. This is also an escape hatch for everybody involved. We havent seep reporting on exactly what the conversations between Mitch Mcconnell and the president have been but i wouldnt be surprised if mcconnell basically aaccepted to him on this National Emergency after advising him against it because it was a way to bring this entire thing to an end. Look, this is how the president has conducted himself throughout his presidency. Hes willing to go farther and this anybody else, as far as digging his feet in. Hes willing to do things as far as praki breaking down politica norms we have not seen in politics in decades, maybe ever. And that puts other people around him in the position to basically either tolerating him or drawing a line in the sand and actually fighting him on something. There is not a desire to fight him on this. This is a way for mcconnell to get past a shutdown he apparently never watch theed in the first place and was threatening to happen again. Basically he can tlohrow this t the courts and they can decide it. But the inintentional consequences are something people dont realize. This is something not tested in the courts. This is something very well could succeed and president could use a National Emergency declaration to get Something Like this done, which is basically a political promise that he made with no real argument for the