Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20190522 : vimarsana.com

MSNBCW Morning Joe May 22, 2019

And author of the playbook, and contributor jake sherman. Nancy pelosis trip to the white house today isnt her only high stakes meeting today. Shes set to meet with her rank and file as some president ial candidates are calling for impeachment proceedings against the president. Heres part of what the House Speaker told me on monday. This isnt about politics. Its not about passion, not about prejudice, not about polit politics. It is about patriotism and the presentation of the facts. So the American People can see why were going down a certain path. And it is i dont know. I feel very confident that the American People know that they deserve to know the truth. Thats what we want to present to them, in a way that they dont perceive to be without the presentation of the facts. So were going to get to the impeachment debate just ahead. Theres so much with that. Plus, were joined by congresswoman katie porter, who had this exchange on capitol hill with trump cabinet secretary, dr. Ben carson. Keep in mind as youre listening to this, hes the secretary of housing and urban development. Id also like you to get back to me, if you dont mind, to explain the disparity in re orchestrates. Do you know what an reo . . Oreo. Not an oreo. Reo. Real estate. Whats the o stand for . Organization . Real estate owned. Thats what happens when a property goes to foreclosure. We call it an reo. Oh, my god. Willie, help me out here. He didnt know one of the key terms that is used in his department. This is that trump pick for secretary of housing and urban development. I know we have so much other news to get to, but i just want to put a frame around that. Help me understand what happened in that exchange. I but, wait, theres more. Go ahead. On the one hand, it was funny and absurd, and it went viral because he thought she was talkingcookies. But the other hand, he is the secretary of urban housing and development. This is what you get when the standard for appointments in an administration is how many nice things you say about the president. This is has nice as he can get. It was funny but also really disturbing. Yup. He did put a person into this into hud, one of the most important agencies, especially for low income folks, and had no experience doing it, mika. Absolutely none. He didnt know anything about housing, and he didnt know anything about running a large organization. Yet, to willies point, there he was, praising the president , so he became hud secretary. Its incredible. Were going to be talking to the congresswoman later. Also, the question was pertaining to the number of foreclosures, people suffering, losing their homes. He thinks that shes talking about an oreo cookie. Thats where we are. We are going to begin with a draft of a confidential Internal Revenue Service Legal memo, revealing President Trumps tax returns must be given to Congress Unless he claims executive privilege. The memo contradicts the white houses reason for denying the request for President Trumps tax returns. Trump has refused to turn over six years of returns but has not evoked executive privilege. Mnuchin denied the request, arguing legislators have no legislative purpose for requesting them. According to the tenpage irs memo, the disclosure of tax returns to the committee is mandatory, requiring the secretary to disclose returns and return information requested by the tax writing chairs. It also directly rejects the reason mnuchin cites for withholding the returns for lawmakers. Adding, that only the only basis the agencys refusal to comply with the subpoena would be the invocation of the doctrine of executive privilege. The irs told the post the memo was prepared last fall, when democrats had made it clear they would seek copies of trumps tax returns under a 1924 law requiring the treasury secretary to provide them to congress. However, it is unclear who wrote and reviewed the document. The agency says the memo was never forwarded to the Treasury Department. Willie, again, a more back and forth about trumps tax returns. I guess the big question here will be, what happens next . Does this memo mean something actually has to happen . Right. Does Steve Mnuchin have to respond to this in some way . Lets bring in one of the reporters behind posting this document. Policy reporter for the Washington Post, jeff stein. Lets talk through this a little bit. This memo was written, you report, in the fall at irs by a lawyer, but never made it to Treasury Department. Is it fair to say treasury secretary Steve Mnuchin was not aware of the memo and didnt know about this policy . That is what the Treasury Department told us in a statement, that mnuchin never reviewed the memo. Well try to get to the bottom of that. Mnuchin is testifying on the hill today, and i am very confident that lawmakers will try to press him and ask that very question that you just posed, which is a good one. So is this, jeff, binding in any way . Is this an opinion written by a lawyer, or is this an irs policy that will have implications for, say, treasury secretary mnuchin responding to a subpoena from a Congressional Committee to get these tax returns out . No. Mnuchin is not bound by this decision or this memo at all. He is free to make his own opinion, and he canov overrule e judgment of subordinates at the irs. Some have conferred with his decision, not to give the tax returns. The document we obtained is certain to be used by democrats in their lawsuit in federal court, seeking to compel the release of trumps tax returns to them. Hey, jake sherman, how worried do you figure Steve Mnuchin is about this memo, considering the administrations policy clearly is delay and deny on every aspect of congressional requests . Yeah, jeff and joshs story is terrific because it gives a peek inside an agency thats holding onto documents, despite what appears to be a clear language in the statue. I will say this, all of these things, and this plays into what mika said at the top about impeachment, all these document requests are going to be settled in court. Thats becoming more and more evident. That is the backbone of Nancy Pelosis strategy when it comes to impeachment, as she talked about with mika in that interview. All these issues will be resolved by a judge. We saw it last week. Pelosi this morning is going behind closed doors with her lawmakers to discuss all the successes they anticipate that theyll have, and that they have already had in court. I think everything, until possibly, by the way, the Supreme Court. This could go pretty high. As we know, trump likes to put things off and take things to the highest Authority Court wise. Will procedural lodge complai complaints, ask for appeals, and all those things. I think this will be decided by somebody high than the irs or Steve Mnuchin. Well, this administration brings stonewalling to a whole new level because they just say no, no, and no to everything. So if this goes to the courts, the question is going to be, what will be the timeline, especially if there are so many efforts to try and stop the process along the way . Could this drag out so long that the American People dont get a realtime sense of whats really going on. Lets bring in professor of practice and distinguished scholar at residence at New York University school of law, bob bauer. He served as white House Counsel to president obama. Thanks for being on the show. The memo says the only basis the agencys refusal to comply with the committees subpoena would be the invocation of the doctrine of executive privilege. What would be the grounds for that and, again, can the white house do that and say no . I would think the answer would be yes. In truth, im not sure at all what it means to say that the administration could or the president could invoke executive privilege to prevent the release of the returns. The statute, which as you pointed out earlier, has been on the books for some time, amended again in 1976, speaks in mandatory terms. The secretary shall furnish the requested information. There are designated Congressional Committees, including the chief of staff of the joint Tax Committee, that has the authority under this statute to request the returns. Congress has made a judgment there. It isnt clear in what context or what way the president could defeat this mandatory requirement with a claim of privilege. Maybe there are some circumstances around some aspects of the returns that perhaps the irs has in mind that the president could use the privilege to defeat the request. Im not sure what it would be. It looks to me like there could be so many caveats. This is an administration that will look for them and seize upon them and stop the process. Well one thing i would add is the hold on. Hold on, jeff. Bob, thats for you first, then, jeff, ill go to you. Bob, what do you make about the fact that i moan, the pattern of this administration is to stymie, to say no, to find a way out. So youve just mentioned that theres so many potential caveats that you dont even know, in terms of looking at this process and the law, how the law applies here. Are we looking at months and years before we get anything out of this administration in terms of tax returns or any type of information . Yes. I mean, i cant speak to each and every instance, how easy itd be for the administration to hold out, but without a doubt, if this all goes to litigation, absolutely, given the various stages of the appellate process it could go through, this could consume a significant amount of time, well into next year and beyond. There you go. Jeff, what happens next then . Its a big question and i dont know. I wanted to make a quick point that, you know, the doctrine of executive privilege is about internal Administration Policies and deliberations. Some of the returns that democrats are seeking are from before trump was even president. Perhaps thats why treasury secretary mnuchin has not, so far, cited executive privilege and invoked it. He has not turned to that yet. Perhaps thats part of the reason why. All right. Washington post jeff stein, thank you for your reporting. The tension between House Democrats and the Trump Administration is escalating after former white House Counsel don mcgahn defied a congressional subpoena to testify before congress yesterday. There was that empty chair. The House Judiciary Committee subpoenaed former White House Communications director hope hicks, along with annie donaldson, mcgahns former chief of staff. Mcgahn had been scheduled to appear before the committee yesterday morning, but he skipped the hearing after being directed by President Trump to ignore the subpoena. President took it upon himself to intimidate a witness who has a legal obligation to be here today. This conduct is not remotely acceptable. Let me be clear, this committee will hear mr. Mcgahns testimony, even if we have to go to court to secure it. We will not allow the president to prevent the American People from hearing from this witness. Bob bauer, id like to get back to tax law for a second. I realize tax law can be very arcane, and every lobbyist in washington has a semicolon or clause in tax law that has been written over the past 20 years. What if this subpoena to the Treasury Department, to the secretary treasurer, for six years of Donald Trumps taxes, what if it were to end in the year 2016, when he was not an elected official, he was not president of the United States . How could he ever invoke executive privilege when the request was for tax returns from when he was a private citizen . Again, im not sure in what context with respect to what considerations on what record the executive privilege would be invoked. Im not clear about that at all. Im not saying it cant be done. There are lawyers who devote Significant Energy to devising arguments on how it applies to particular circumstances. Those arguments have to be evaluated on a case by case basis. That underscores the point mika made earlier, this could be a protracted legal food fight. Susan, going back to don mcgahn, the sound we set up there with mika, we had the chairman jerry nadler saying moc began wi mcgahn will testify one way or the other. Theyre saying, were not going to answer subpoenas. Well instruct people not to testify. Well invoke executive privilege. Well put up the stone wall. What r you going to do about it . If you were a democrat in a leadership position, nancy pelosi has been careful about the question of impeachment, saying lets slow down and review the facts, but democrats are getting restless in the caucus now. They should be. Its been over a month since the Mueller Report became public. At this point, i think it falls upon the democrats to do something about it. If they feel that there are reasons to impeach the president , if theres things, especially in the second part of that report that are impeachable offenses, go do it. I say this as a republican who called on other republicans in the senate to do the right thing and vote against the president and not authorize the Emergency Action for the Border Security about a month ago. They have to go do their job, and they are frustrated. Just this week, we heard it could take months or years. They should be acting now. Theres got to be a mechanism for more real time oversight and accountability. As the Trump Administration continues to stonewall investigations, a growing number of democrats are pushing for impeachment. I believe that we have come to the time of impeachment. I think that, at a certain point, this is no longer about politics, but this is about upholding the rule of law. Over 30 of the president s associates were indicted by the mueller probe. His Campaign Chairman is in prison right now. Dont tell me theres not enough to discuss and debate impeachment. Yes, there was an impeachment inquiry, id support it. The president of the United States of America Needs to be impeached. Where do we end up if we do that . Thats the question. Im still mowing it over. Ill talk to my colleagues on the floor in a few minutes. Im getting there. Wow. The mounting pressure to impeach is underscoring divisions within the democratic party. According to the New York Times, a sign pelosi senses her caucus is growing restless, shes called a wednesday morning meeting to update lawmakers on the status and the strategy behind the houses investigation. That will happen today. People involved in the investigations tell the times that Speaker Pelosi is also approved an escalation of tactics, sort of impeachment, to try and turn the tables. Jake sherman, i guess i ask you what elijah asked in his sound bite, which is, you know, where do we go from there, if we get there . Thats probably what nancy pelosi is considering, as well. Obviously, this would make much more sense if there were republicans on board, more than just amash. Yeah, and if there were republicans. Theres not one republican in the senate who is interested in impeachment and who is even showing any openness to impeachment. Thats another reality. At the top of playbook, we lay out pelosis strategy, which is to highlight all of the documents she is in court trying to get, all of the steps shes taken. Shes concerned, and her allies are concerned, the people that work for her are concerned, that a quick impeachment right now would undermine their ability to get documents. Remember, impeachment isnt just a magical key that will open a box of documents that are otherwise unavailable to congress. I mean, impeachment is just another step forward, and it is going to continue this fight. Now, they believe that theres just 25 democrats who have publicly said they should impeach the president. Thats still like 10 of the democratic caucus. This isnt widespread right now. Yes, some of her leadership have said they want to impeach the president , but hoyer, clyburn, the top leaders dont want to do it at this point. Take this with a grain of salt, but allies believe if democrats impeach the president , theyll lose the house in 2020 and lose the white house in 2020. Thats what they believe, i think. Yeah. Thats the issue. Willie, the minute they start impeachment proceedings, can you see President Trump, what he will do on the National Stage with that, in front of rallies . I mean, he will make this his chaos road show. Well, weve been that is something to keep in mind. Yeah, weve been talking about this for a long time. Although the facts may lead democrats to impeachment, it is a fight donald trump and the white house would love to have. Remember it is a dead end in the republicancontrolled senate, where he would not be convicted. Obviously, weve seen how republicans have fallen in line behind President Trump. Jake, you anticipated my question to you, which is, really, it is still a small minority of democrats supporting impeachment. Something like two dozen coming out publicly. Nancy pelosi, jeffries, others in leadership saying, lets pump the brakes a little bit on this question. Are they considering the idea that impeachment, also though, again, the facts may

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