That was way too early for this wednesday morning. Morning joe starts right now. I want to get our hands around a very difficult situation all right, donald. Hold on, donald, youve got to let us ask questions. Go. You cant just talk. Youve got to ask us ask questions. Youre just talking. No, im not just talking. Im giving you the facts. We will go to break if you keep talking go to break then. All im doing is giving you the facts go to break. Well be back with more morning joe. Note to moderators that actually want to moderate a debate that makes sense, stays organized and keeps both candidates in line, thats one idea, cut the mic and mean it. Good morning and welcome to morning joe. It is wednesday, september 30th. Along with joe, willie, and me, we have msnbc National Affairs analyst, cohost of showtimes the circus and executive editor of the recount, John Heilemann. Cofounder and ceo of axios, jim vandehei. Politics and journalism professor at morgan state university, politics editor at the grio and an msnbc political contributor, Jason Johnson. And historian and rogers professor of the presidency at vanderbilt university, jon meacham will join us in just a moment. Wow yeah. Yeah. It was something. What was that . Well, you know, it was, again, what weve seen for four years. That was a president completely ignorant of or uncaring about the position that the United States has held on the world stage over the past 240 years. And also, willie, ignorant or uncaring about the power of a president to send out a message to america that we are an exceptional country. I mean, you think about the fact that during the height of the cold war, actually, nearing its end, Ronald Reagan would talk about freedom in the soviet union and dissidents locked in gulogs thousands of miles away from freedom would find out about the american president s words, and they would tap in code what the president said, while locked in their jail cells, and hope would spread throughout those gulogs. Thats what the american president s words are supposed to convey hope. Were supposed to be a city shining brightly on the hill for all the world to see, whether its from Ronald Reagan or inspiration from john kennedy or fdr or lincoln talking about the last great hope for a dying world. That is what our president s are supposed to appeal to. And last night, you had a president shaming himself, bringing shame to anybody who still supports him, and actually giving hope, actually, to racist, antisemitic groups stand back and stand by . Telling them to stand back and telling them to stand by. Whoa. Sending messages to his supporters, telling them to disturb and disrupt voting, trying to threaten those who are going to try to vote peacefully, and also making such a mockery of american democracy by screaming and yelling during that debate and being completely unmoored emotionally, philosophically, intellectually, that, again, he has brought even greater shame to this country and has made the American Democratic process look like a joke worldwide. Well, weve worn these adjectives out over the last five years, but that was truly, truly disgraceful. It was truly, truly embarrassing. It was truly, truly pathetic. It was truly, truly chaotic. And i want to point out, that clip that we bumped in with, where you cut donald trump off. He was on the show in 2015, defending the proposed muslim ban. Thats why he couldnt answer a question that you were asking him, so we had to go to break. Last night, he was there defending, indirectly, the proud boys, telling them to stand back and stand by. The proud boys, a White Supremacist Group. Could you imagine an easier question to answer for anyone, but especially for a president of the United States . Mr. President , will you condemn white supremacisted . He couldnt do it. Reminds us of another Campaign Moment where he pretended he didnt know who david duke was four yaegtst years ago. Hes given the chance. He wont do it. Know who he is. So there is the spectacle of this, how ugly it was, just as a representation of our politics, as a display to the world of who we are and where we are as a country. Then there was the strategy. Who exactly was he convincing last night to vote for him, other than his base, whos not going anywhere . Who watched that proud boys. If there are undecided people, who watched that and said, yes, i want more of that for four years . So, well talk about who did well and who didnt, but how could you watch that and want more of that, if youre still thinking about who to vote for . Well, and listen, theres an entire network that is covering this debate as if it was a proud moment for the president. And this situation has gone too far with a bunch of labotomized hosts and anchors waiting for his phone call. Here is the moment, if you think you want to debate that here is the moment where the president of the United States refused to denounce White Supremacist Groups, opting instead for language many consider to be a call to action. Take a listen. Are you willing tonight to condemn White Supremacists and militia groups sure. And to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities, as we saw in kenosha and as weve seen in portland . Sure, im willing to do that are you prepared specifically well, go ahead, sir. I would say almost everything i see is from the left wing, not the right wing. What are you saying . Im willing to do anything. I want to see peace. Well, then do it, sir. Do it. Say it. Do you want to call them what do you want to call them . Give me a name. White supremacists and who do you want me to condemn . Proud boys . Stand back and stand by. But ill tell you what, ill tell you what, somebodys got to do something about antifa and the left, because this is not a rightwing problem. This is his own fbi director said this is a leftwing problem White Supremacists. Antifas an idea, not an organization. Oh, youve got to be kidding me. Not a militia. Thats what his fbi his fbi director has said. Then you know what, hes wrong. Were done, sir. Okay. Unless youre a white supremacist, if you took that as a great moment for the president , i dont know who you are. The proud boys took the president s words as a shout of support and celebrated it on social media. Within minutes, the groups members were posting on private social media, calling trumps comments, historic. The New York Times reports that some Group Members labeled it as a tacit endorsement of their violent tactics, while another posted the group is already seeing a spike in new recruits. The group is considered a violent, nationalistic, islamaphobic, transphobic and misogynistic hate group, according to the Antidefamation League. The selfdescribed western chauvinist organization was banned by both twitter and facebook in 2018. Think about that one. And as willie mentioned, the president s comments and the proud boys celebration of his response is similar to kkk grand wizard david duke celebrating trumps response to the 2017 rally in charlottesville, saying it was why he and others like him voted for trump in 2016. What does today represent to you . This represents a turning point for the people of this country. We are determined to take our country back. Were going to fulfill the promises of donald trump. Thats what we believed in. Thats why we voted for donald trump, because he said hes going to take our country back, and thats what weve got to do. Well, and this is what donald trump has done time and again. He did it last night to another white supremacist, antisemitic group. The Antidefamation League came out and demanded that donald trump immediately apologize. This is like charlottesville yes. Which, of course, a lot of antiantitrump hucksters, who tried to keep their subscriptions up and tried to keep their viewership up, actually defended donald trump after his charlottesville comments, saying, oh, he didnt say what the libs are saying. And actually, take it straight from the horses mouth, david duke. David duke celebrated what donald trump said there. And you know, last night like donald trump said, what do you want me to call them . What do you want me to call them . That reminds me an awful lot of back in february of 2016, when we condemned donald trump and said that it was disqualifying because he went on a sunday show before super tuesday in 2016 and said he didnt know who david duke was, despite the fact in 2000 he had condemned david duke as a racist and said he wouldnt run in the reform party because david duke was a member of that party. He wouldnt be associated with that racist. He also fained ignorance on who the ku klux klan was. And so, here we are, four years later. Hes still doing it. Oh, i dont know who they are. And then refusing once again to condemn an antisemitic group, a racist group, a group of White Supremacists. Again, nothing new. But he did it on the worlds biggest political stage last night. And all those antiantitrumpsters who have shamed and humiliated themselves during his presidency, once again forced to confront the fact that they are supporting a man who will not condemn White Supremacy in america. I await the wall street journal editorial pages condemnation of this continued nod and a wink to racism heres your chance. And in fact in fact, John Heilemann, donald trump telling them to stand by. Stand by while trying to undermine american democracy by calling into question the legitimacy of our voting process, following all the other attacks on our democratic process and how he will not respect the results of this process. This, of course, amounts to a fivealarm fire for democracy. But im just curious in general, speak to that. But also, speak to the debate last night. And though we really cant analyze this like we would analyze any other political debate in american history, talk about the political consequences of this for the two candidates. Right. Lets just start with this. So, the debate, obviously, was a debacle. Theres only one people are calling it a crap show, using other language, over and over again last night, suggesting, somehow, that like, this is sort of a thing where both candidates created a spectacle and this is an act of violence against the institution of the president ial debates. This has been a ritual that weve observed in a relatively dignified way on this stage, this debate stage, on television since 1960. And the president basically decided to take the form and break it. Back in 2016, we talked about this little bit yesterday, the president did a lot of unconventional things in 2016, but more or less tried to i mean, he lied and he misdirected, he attacked the moderators. He stalked Hillary Clinton on stage. But he didnt try to break the format. Yesterday he tried to break the format. It was basically like, im not really here to partake in a debate. Im not here to engage in any way substantively. Im here to make a mockery of this form. Im here to fundamentally, profoundly disrespect every viewer. We dont know what the numbers are, but this could have been a recordbreaking debate last night. Maybe, i dont know if its the same as the first debate in 2016, well have 84, 85 Million People. Thats what it was four years ago. I cant imagine the numbers not at least that high. Ill also say i cant imagine that the number wont be slashed to maybe in half or less for the next couple of debates, if we have them. But the president basically when the president sets out to do Something Like this, like, to not just take an aggressive strategy or to try to attack joe biden, but to break the format in the way that he did it, tells you a bunch of things, one of which is that he understands that he cant compete if he decides to partake under the rules that were set, right . Thats its a profound sign of weakness that the president decided, and his people decided, they would lose if they tried to debate joe biden in the conventional way. And so, to me, he did we talked yesterday again, what was he trying to do in this debate . Hes trying to make this election a choice, and hes trying to make it about joe biden, and then to disqualify joe biden. He didnt do any of that last night. He made the debate about himself last night, joe. And you know, what do we know about the presidency of donald trump . When donald trump makes it about himself, he loses. And so, i think, you know, the implications are i dont know if were going to have another one of these debates. I know the Biden Campaign is standing up saying theyre ready to partake. No. But i dont know how you could go forward and have another debate like that, unless the commission somehow takes control and tries to get the moderator or someone to assert themselves in a different way. But i think it was an utter disgrace for the process, but also just a sign of desperation and a huge backfire moment for donald trump here. This has not worked to his advantage, and everything he did suggested just how weak and just how desperate he was in the face of this moment. So, jon, youre actually, youre so on to something here. Donald trump acted that way last night because he knew, if it were a fair debate, if it were a fair political fight, he would lose. And it reminds me just like the election. In the spring of 2016, i saw the transcript of Donald TrumpsEditorial Board meeting with fred ryan and the Washington Post. And i read the transcript and was shocked that donald trump went on and on talking about his hands these are the most beautiful hands and just went on and on. Theyre asking him questions about Foreign Policy stretching. Theyre asking him questions about the economy. And i said to mika after reading the transcript, i said, look how stupid this guy is look how clueless this guy is mika looked at the transcript, and mika, you immediately said, oh, no, he knows he cant answer their questions. He knows he cant hes not qualified to be president. All hes doing is stalling and wasting their time and distracting them with lunacy because he doesnt know the answers to any of those questions right. Because hes so ignorant. And mika, thats exactly what we saw last night. Well, and he doesnt want biden to answer the questions because he will have a cogent answer with Historical Context and maybe even some experience to go with it. And he didnt want that to happen, so he kept interrupting, he kept poking, he kept trying to get under his skin, going after his son. While joe biden was talking about beau biden, his son who served in iraq, he just jumps in randomly about his other son and starts getting deeply personal and mean and cruel and acting, quite frankly, monstrous, for the entire debate. And yet, there was no containing this. There were rules to this debate. The candidates agreed to them. And Chris Wallace could not keep President Trump to the rules. It was a youknowwhat show. Heres some of that, whatever you want to call it. All right, were gentlemen no you would have been much later, joe mr. President much later. Youre talking about 2 Million People youre not going to shut him up. The individual mandate was the most unpopular aspect of obamacare. I got rid of it. Mr. President and we will protect beam preexisting conditions. Im the moderator of this debate and i would like you to let me ask my question and then you can answer go ahead. I want to make sure mr. President , can you let him finish, sir . He doesnt know how to do that. Vote now are you going to pack make sure people know, your senator he doesnt want to answer that question. Im not going to answer that question. Why wouldnt you . The question would you shut up, man . Youve got to provide these businesses the ability to have the money to be able to reopen with the ppe as well as with the sanitation they need. You have to provide them tell that to nancy pelosi. Will he just shush for a minute . I think the country would be better served if we allowed both people to speak with fewer interruptions. Im appealing to you, sir, to do that. Well, and him, too. Well, frankly, youve been doing more interrupting than he has. Well, thats all right, but he does plenty. Well, sir, less than he does plenty. No, less than you have. You have repeatedly criticized his statement. He made a statement no, you know, sir i would love to end it. You know, if you want to switch seats joe, bidens getting great reviews. He did great last night. He handled it really well. And when he was allowed to talk, he sounded great. But why in the world was his team expose him to lower himself to a display like that ever again . Well, willie and i were talking about this before the show. I would have walked off the stage at certain times and said, until you can actually make sure that we abide by the rules, im not going to be a part of this charade. That said, voters overwhelmingly thought last night that joe biden won that debate. Donald trump set himself on fire in front of 100 Million People last night during that debate. He turned off women. He turned off independents. He turned off the same suburban voters that are turned off by Mitch Mcconnell trying to jam through a Supreme Court justice in the dying days of the trump administration. So, they have to debate whether they want to go out and let donald trump blow up himself again well, he makes a joke of our democracy as hes blowing himself up, so thats the part where if i were the Biden Campaign, id say, were not doing this to our country. Well, i think theyre probably deliberating over that this morning. I do want to say a quick side note about Chris Wallace. I was concerned last night. I was upset last night about the fact that Chris Wallace was allo