Transcripts For MSNBCW MSNBC Live With Hallie Jackson 201808

To his defense. Our team is set up and ready to go. I want to start in virginia. Day three of jury deliberations that has just started in Paul Manaforts financial crimes trial. Ken dilanian is outside of the courtroom. I know manaforts lawyer spoke to reporters briefly. Should we read anything into how long jurors have taken or no . Reporter couple ways to look at it. One, this is a dense and complicated case. 18 counts of tax and bank fraud, and this jury is meticulously going through the evidence. There could be disagreement, and theyre grappling through that. I think an acquittal would be a surprise, if not a shock, given the overwhelming state of the evidence, and the fact that manafort didnt put on a defense. Clearly, this jury is taking some time. If the jury is hung, or if there is an acquittal, what does it mean for the next trial in d. C. . You have 1,000 pieces of evidence at stake. Reporter thats right. It Means Nothing legally for the next trial. It would be a huge Public Relations blow for the Robert Mueller investigation. Donald trump and his allies would trumpetter rafters. This is the first trial of mueller in court. If it is a mistrial, it is a victory for manafort, but then the government tries the case again. They have to spend money. It is an expense. In a sense, defeat for mueller, but not as severe as an acquittal would be. Ken, real quick here, i know manaforts lawyer said his client is feeling pretty good or really good this morning. Whats happening inside the courtroom as you were stepping out . Reporter well, the deliberations have begun. There is sort of a brief proceeding in the morning. The judge sort of launched his proceedings for the day. Now, the jury is in the jury room deliberating, hallie. Ken dilanian outside the courtroom in virginia. Thank you. I want to talk about new details related to another piece of the special counsel investigation, dealing with two of trumps lawyers, white house attorney don mcgahn, and personal lawyer rudy giuliani. It is reported mcgahn has cooperated with muellers team, providing some 30 hours of testimony. The report has been confirmed by President Trump himself, who is going after the special counsel again this morning, calling mueller a disgrace, discredited, looking for trouble. His attacks on mueller by name escalating today and over the weekend. What about the chances the president himself will sit down with mueller . Those seem to be getting slimmer by the day. Giuliani calling any interview a perjury trap, in his view, and adding a new phrase into the mix. Im not going to be rushed into having him testify so he gets trapped into perjury. When you tell me, you know, he should testify because he is going to tell the truth and shouldnt worry, it is silly. It is somebodys version of the truth. Not the truth. He didnt have a conversation truth is truth. I dont mean to go no, truth isnt truth. The president of the United States says, i didnt. Truth is the truth. Mr. Mayor, do you realize what no, no, no. This is going to be a bad meme. Dont do this to me. Dont do truth isnt truth to me. Giuliani did do truth isnt truth to chuck. Not trying to clean up that comment. Saying he was referring to a he said she said type of situation. Believing only time can reveal the actual truth. With us now is New York Times reporter and mississippi n eer l schmidt. Also, deputy attorneygeneral under president bush. Also, kara lee. And white house reporter, nancy cook. Gang is here. Thank you all for that. Michael, let me start with you. It was your reporting that broke this wide open with your colleague, maggie haberman. Publicly, donald trump says, im fine. Its cool. Based on reporting, does it match what hes saying privately . The white house did you waoe the extent of what don mcgahn has told investigators, despite the fact that mr. Giuliani and the president are out there saying there is nothing to hide here, and this was a good thing, including the president s former personal lawyer, john dowd. He is saying it is good, as well. They dont know. They dont know the extent of this. They got a short interview of this. They never really learned the full extent of the statements he gave, the cooperation. It is highly unusual for a lawyer to do this. When you look at the areas Robert Mueller might be interested in, in january, you reported donald trump ordered mcgahn to fire mueller, and he refused. Presumably, it might be something the special counsel would want to know about, right . Correct. The special counsel learned things from mcgahn that the investigators wouldnt have known otherwise. There were details about the firing of mueller, how the president tried to get mcgahn to fire mueller, that are new. They were things that enlightened them. What happened here, mcgahn was afraid the president was going to pin him for any obstruction issues. He was going to make him be the fall guy. Mcgahn realized in order to protect himself, he had to lean as hard as possible into his cooperation with the special counsels office and show mueller that he had nothing to hide, and that he was a complete open book. That is an incredibly powerful thing for investigators to have in an investigation, where theyre looking at the president , whether the president obstructed justice. Theyre having someone who was right next to him, advising him legally on what he could do, and theyve had his full cooperation. Tom, i want to talk through the idea of intent and where that comes into play. And what Newt Gingrich had to say this morning. The president s friend, ally of donald trumps, talking about this idea of 30 hours worth of testimony. This is the end of the mueller investigation. You cant reasonably ask for more than 30 hours of the white House Counsel, find nothing, and claim you need to keep looking. I think were going to see by this fall we dont know if he found anything. Mr. Speaker, we dont know what he found. Hmm . How do we know what he found . Well, we do know from the don mcgahn saying flatly, he saw nothing the president did that was in any way illegal. Tom, thats is that mcgahns call to make . Well, it is not mcgahns call to make ultimately. Certainly relevant. If he said the president engaged in illegal activity, thatd be something. But he is not the final word. While i dont second guess the decision to meet with mueller, what i cant get my head around is how they lose track of what he is saying to mueller. If youll have the president sit down with mueller, you want to know what your lawyer, or what the white House Counsel, has said to mueller over the course of the 30 hours. That, to me, is whats incomprehensible about this. What does it say about the machinations inside of the white house in. Suggests they lost track of the process. It suggests they needed a tighter line of communication with mcgahn and his lawyer, so they knew what mcgahn was saying over the course of the 30 hours. Even if it is not affirmatively harmful to the president , you want to know what he is saying, to educate the team about whats going on. Let me ask about rudy giuliani. We heard him say to chuck, truth isnt truth. Now, hes saying, what i meant was he said she said. This is shades of alternative facts, right . This is, as chuck pointed out, likely to become a bad meme, printed on tshirts in the near future, likely at democratic ral rallies. Is giuliani setting up that whatever mueller comes out with, likely in the smafall, just one version of the truth . Is this pr from rudy . Yes. He is an extension of the president in terms of how hes casting this investigation. The whole entire goal here is to make a political argument out of it. Ultimately, they believe it is going to come down to politics and whether or not, you know, the president is able to be or there is support enough for the president to be impeached. Not actually going to be found criminal wrongdoing by muellers report, itll come down to a political argument. Thats what youve seen him do. He is leaning into it. Yesterday when he said truth isnt truth, he was making this case that james comey is going to say one thing about a conversation that he had with the president , and the president is going to Say Something else. Its how two people see the same thing. Alldershowitz was out defend rudy this morning. Rudy made have used an unartful phrase, but he was right. You never allow your client to answer a question truthfully if someone else will answer the question differently. That person may be believed over the truthful answer. Thats what rudy was trying to say. Unartfully put, but it is something every defense attorney would agree to. I want to get you on this. Hes making the point this was inartful by giuliani, which it sounds like it was, but it was misleading. Giuliani said, oh, nobody knew they were part of the russian government. That is just not true. Documents from the setup of the meeting that have since been released show they knew exactly who they were talking to. First read makes this point. To this day, team trump has not told the truth about the trump tower meeting. If you were a judge, jury member, or the special counsel, what would you think . The strategy theyve done has basically been to undermine institutions. Undermine democrats on the hill. The legal strategy, the mueller investigation. I think the undermining of the press is part of that. When the special report comes out, the president can claim, i know the truth. None of these other institutions do. I think that thats just been sort of a huge part of the leadlead up to this and something theyre doing sort of with much more frequency, now that the investigation is moving along at a faster clip. Michael, the president has made this comparison, calling him a rat over the weekend, talking about john dean, of course, the former white House Counsel back during the nixon days. Somebody who did we talk about truth, right, and he told the truth about watergate. Told the truth about what he knew. Key witness for the prosecution during it. Told Senate Committee and investigators that nixon was deeply involved in the coverup. Ended up serving four months in a federal safe house. Perceived by the president as a rat. Is that a tell, michael, in your view . No. The president has had a long standing obsession with john dean. Hes talked about him a lot in the white house. You know, sort of, obviously, calling him a rat behind closed doors, and now doing it publicly. Something that sort of concerned him. He always thought dean sold out the president. Whats interesting here, and what i think the president s legal strategy is, what theyre trying to show, is that the president also does not need to go in and do the interview because theyre going to say now that mueller has mcgahn. He has someone who was in the room who can speak to his mindset, that can give them the facts that they could get from the president. Why do you need to interview the president . The problem is, most legal experts will say that if youre mueller, and youre trying to find out whether the president had criminal intent when he took the actions, like firing comey, you really need to ask him, not someone else who was there. Michael schmidt, tom dupree, thank you for being on the show. Ill ask nancy and carol to stick around. The president s former fixer, Michael Cohen, has already suggested he is ready to cooperate with prosecutors. Now, were learning more about what the government might have as leverage. Including allegations of fraud in more than 20 million worth of bank loans. What does this mean for the special counsel investigation . Were getting into that after the break. You right now that i i believe, i really do believe that somethings got a hold on me, yeah oh, it must be love oh, somethings got a hold on me right now, child oh, it must be love let me tell you now, oh it must be love you always get the lowest price on our rooms, guaranteed . Lets say it in a really low voice. Carl . Lowest price, guaranteed. Just stick with badda book. Badda boom. Book now at choicehotels. Com this wifi is fast. I know i know i know i know when did brian move back in . Brians back . He doesnt get my room. Hes only going to be here for like a week. Like a month, tops. Oh boy. Wifi fast enough for the whole family is simple, easy, awesome. In many cultures, young men would stay with their families until their 40s. This morning, federal prosecutors in new york seemed to be closing in on Michael Cohen as part of their investigation into whether the president s former personal attorney committed tax and bank fraud and whether he may have violated Campaign Finance laws. Nbc news is confirming the report by the New York Times that prosecutors are mulling over how and when to serve cohen with an indictment. Nbcs tom winter has been the tip of the spear on this reporting for us. He is joining me from new york. What do we know about the timing here, what the Southern District is planning to do, and then how it relates to the special counsel investigation . Sure, hallie. The key thing here is that the Southern District really wants to follow their normal practice. All the normal ways they do this investigation. They want it to be as routine as possible. They know there is a tremendous amount of public scrutiny on the case. They know anything that they do, any action they do, is going to be looked at. They normally when they do the public corruption and they do these cases that politically charged, they stick to the guidelines, letting them know when they can make moves in a case. Obviously, an indictment is a significant move in a case. If they were to seek the indictment, theyll want to do it before labor day or after election day, to keep within department of justice guidelines. I think thats why youre starting to hear now that they may seek an indictment by the end of the month. Makes sense based on what i heard. The other thing, they can indict Michael Cohen, then they can come back later, if they find more information, and they can put forth a superceding indictment. They can also indict cohen and have a discussion about a cooperation agreement. There is nothing here that precludes them from doing that. There is specific things on the calendar that say, you either have to move soon or move after election. Move away later, yeah. Exactly. Tom winter, thank you. Let me bring in Jeff Jacobowitz who represented clinton officials. T if youre Michael Cohen, what is your next move . We have a combination. Theres one other alternative, as well, which is they can indict him under seal and not reveal it until after the election. Theyre following the rules of not indicting somebody after august if there is an election. If youre cohen, youre trying to cooperate. There was distinct silence the last few weeks, and everybody thought cohen might have been cooperating. Could have been it hasnt worked out. Either, one, youre gearing up to fight the case or, two, youre starting to produce the tapes and cooperating to mueller or the Southern District. Boy, theyre listening to a lot of tapes, between omarosa and cohen. Do you get any sense though that cohen is trying to fight with prosecutors here . It seems like all of his public signals have been, yo, im not buds with president giving the signals back. There is a report from politico that his lawyer is talking to john dean, who we mentioned last segment. Your thoughts . The sense is, hes trying to cooperate and get a pardon from trump. Looks like it is going by the wayside. He is trying to cooperate. Nobody wants to go to trial in a bank and tax fraud case with immication i implications of the tax fraud finance payments. The open question is, theres definitely some very serious charges against cohen, but the question is, does he have enough that the prosecutors and the special investigators want to cut a deal with him . I think that the charges against him alone could be very significant, but that is the thing that im watching. Carol, youre nodding. Yeah. You know, Michael Cohen has basically been, for weeks, im available, you know. Hey, guys. Come chat. Right over here. He clearly wants to Say Something. He looks like the perception, at least, is that he really wants it. To nancys point, it really matters whether mueller not muellers team but federal investigators think he has valuable enough information. Given what we know about how much theyve taken from him, you know, who knows if they think they need him personally. He is also in this web of the Stormy Daniels story, right . The alleged affair she had with the president , which the president denies. Daniels was talking on a show over in the uk. I want to play a clip. This is just happening today. Watch. My court has a stay. My court date got pushed back, which i thought id be done with before Celebrity Big Brother sta started. I needed to talk to my attorney, which is the reason from shortening it to one week. What are your thoughts on donald trump . I think that he is a man who has gotten in over his head. Daniels annoys the president , right . He hates when shes in the spotlight. He tweets about, you know, concern about all of this, when this happens. Shes still talking. She might fade in and out but shes here to stay. Finds a way to tweak him, you know, and say that he is in over his head. The subtext of that is that because im here to continue talking about him and drawing attention to this. Then you have daniels lawyer, jeff, and im curious about this, Michael Avenatti was in New Hampshire yesterday. The hillsborough democratic event. He was in iowa as a reporter on the show before that, making noise about a possible president ial run. Making political overtures. At the same time, at the epicenter of this huge case against President Trump. Too much splitting of the attention . He has two jobs now. Hes running for president and defending Stormy Daniels. Maybe a third job where he was appearing on television. He is a busy guy. He has shown he can handle it. Stormy daniels has been out of the news for a while. Of omarosa and Paul Manaforts<\/a> financial crimes trial. Ken dilanian is outside of the courtroom. I know manaforts lawyer spoke to reporters briefly. Should we read anything into how long jurors have taken or no . Reporter couple ways to look at it. One, this is a dense and complicated case. 18 counts of tax and bank fraud, and this jury is meticulously going through the evidence. There could be disagreement, and theyre grappling through that. I think an acquittal would be a surprise, if not a shock, given the overwhelming state of the evidence, and the fact that manafort didnt put on a defense. Clearly, this jury is taking some time. If the jury is hung, or if there is an acquittal, what does it mean for the next trial in d. C. . You have 1,000 pieces of evidence at stake. Reporter thats right. It Means Nothing<\/a> legally for the next trial. It would be a huge Public Relations<\/a> blow for the Robert Mueller<\/a> investigation. Donald trump and his allies would trumpetter rafters. This is the first trial of mueller in court. If it is a mistrial, it is a victory for manafort, but then the government tries the case again. They have to spend money. It is an expense. In a sense, defeat for mueller, but not as severe as an acquittal would be. Ken, real quick here, i know manaforts lawyer said his client is feeling pretty good or really good this morning. Whats happening inside the courtroom as you were stepping out . Reporter well, the deliberations have begun. There is sort of a brief proceeding in the morning. The judge sort of launched his proceedings for the day. Now, the jury is in the jury room deliberating, hallie. Ken dilanian outside the courtroom in virginia. Thank you. I want to talk about new details related to another piece of the special counsel investigation, dealing with two of trumps lawyers, white house attorney don mcgahn, and personal lawyer rudy giuliani. It is reported mcgahn has cooperated with muellers team, providing some 30 hours of testimony. The report has been confirmed by President Trump<\/a> himself, who is going after the special counsel again this morning, calling mueller a disgrace, discredited, looking for trouble. His attacks on mueller by name escalating today and over the weekend. What about the chances the president himself will sit down with mueller . Those seem to be getting slimmer by the day. Giuliani calling any interview a perjury trap, in his view, and adding a new phrase into the mix. Im not going to be rushed into having him testify so he gets trapped into perjury. When you tell me, you know, he should testify because he is going to tell the truth and shouldnt worry, it is silly. It is somebodys version of the truth. Not the truth. He didnt have a conversation truth is truth. I dont mean to go no, truth isnt truth. The president of the United States<\/a> says, i didnt. Truth is the truth. Mr. Mayor, do you realize what no, no, no. This is going to be a bad meme. Dont do this to me. Dont do truth isnt truth to me. Giuliani did do truth isnt truth to chuck. Not trying to clean up that comment. Saying he was referring to a he said she said type of situation. Believing only time can reveal the actual truth. With us now is New York Times<\/a> reporter and mississippi n eer l schmidt. Also, deputy attorneygeneral under president bush. Also, kara lee. And white house reporter, nancy cook. Gang is here. Thank you all for that. Michael, let me start with you. It was your reporting that broke this wide open with your colleague, maggie haberman. Publicly, donald trump says, im fine. Its cool. Based on reporting, does it match what hes saying privately . The white house did you waoe the extent of what don mcgahn has told investigators, despite the fact that mr. Giuliani and the president are out there saying there is nothing to hide here, and this was a good thing, including the president s former personal lawyer, john dowd. He is saying it is good, as well. They dont know. They dont know the extent of this. They got a short interview of this. They never really learned the full extent of the statements he gave, the cooperation. It is highly unusual for a lawyer to do this. When you look at the areas Robert Mueller<\/a> might be interested in, in january, you reported donald trump ordered mcgahn to fire mueller, and he refused. Presumably, it might be something the special counsel would want to know about, right . Correct. The special counsel learned things from mcgahn that the investigators wouldnt have known otherwise. There were details about the firing of mueller, how the president tried to get mcgahn to fire mueller, that are new. They were things that enlightened them. What happened here, mcgahn was afraid the president was going to pin him for any obstruction issues. He was going to make him be the fall guy. Mcgahn realized in order to protect himself, he had to lean as hard as possible into his cooperation with the special counsels office and show mueller that he had nothing to hide, and that he was a complete open book. That is an incredibly powerful thing for investigators to have in an investigation, where theyre looking at the president , whether the president obstructed justice. Theyre having someone who was right next to him, advising him legally on what he could do, and theyve had his full cooperation. Tom, i want to talk through the idea of intent and where that comes into play. And what Newt Gingrich<\/a> had to say this morning. The president s friend, ally of donald trumps, talking about this idea of 30 hours worth of testimony. This is the end of the mueller investigation. You cant reasonably ask for more than 30 hours of the white House Counsel<\/a>, find nothing, and claim you need to keep looking. I think were going to see by this fall we dont know if he found anything. Mr. Speaker, we dont know what he found. Hmm . How do we know what he found . Well, we do know from the don mcgahn saying flatly, he saw nothing the president did that was in any way illegal. Tom, thats is that mcgahns call to make . Well, it is not mcgahns call to make ultimately. Certainly relevant. If he said the president engaged in illegal activity, thatd be something. But he is not the final word. While i dont second guess the decision to meet with mueller, what i cant get my head around is how they lose track of what he is saying to mueller. If youll have the president sit down with mueller, you want to know what your lawyer, or what the white House Counsel<\/a>, has said to mueller over the course of the 30 hours. That, to me, is whats incomprehensible about this. What does it say about the machinations inside of the white house in. Suggests they lost track of the process. It suggests they needed a tighter line of communication with mcgahn and his lawyer, so they knew what mcgahn was saying over the course of the 30 hours. Even if it is not affirmatively harmful to the president , you want to know what he is saying, to educate the team about whats going on. Let me ask about rudy giuliani. We heard him say to chuck, truth isnt truth. Now, hes saying, what i meant was he said she said. This is shades of alternative facts, right . This is, as chuck pointed out, likely to become a bad meme, printed on tshirts in the near future, likely at democratic ral rallies. Is giuliani setting up that whatever mueller comes out with, likely in the smafall, just one version of the truth . Is this pr from rudy . Yes. He is an extension of the president in terms of how hes casting this investigation. The whole entire goal here is to make a political argument out of it. Ultimately, they believe it is going to come down to politics and whether or not, you know, the president is able to be or there is support enough for the president to be impeached. Not actually going to be found criminal wrongdoing by muellers report, itll come down to a political argument. Thats what youve seen him do. He is leaning into it. Yesterday when he said truth isnt truth, he was making this case that james comey is going to say one thing about a conversation that he had with the president , and the president is going to Say Something<\/a> else. Its how two people see the same thing. Alldershowitz was out defend rudy this morning. Rudy made have used an unartful phrase, but he was right. You never allow your client to answer a question truthfully if someone else will answer the question differently. That person may be believed over the truthful answer. Thats what rudy was trying to say. Unartfully put, but it is something every defense attorney would agree to. I want to get you on this. Hes making the point this was inartful by giuliani, which it sounds like it was, but it was misleading. Giuliani said, oh, nobody knew they were part of the russian government. That is just not true. Documents from the setup of the meeting that have since been released show they knew exactly who they were talking to. First read makes this point. To this day, team trump has not told the truth about the trump tower meeting. If you were a judge, jury member, or the special counsel, what would you think . The strategy theyve done has basically been to undermine institutions. Undermine democrats on the hill. The legal strategy, the mueller investigation. I think the undermining of the press is part of that. When the special report comes out, the president can claim, i know the truth. None of these other institutions do. I think that thats just been sort of a huge part of the leadlead up to this and something theyre doing sort of with much more frequency, now that the investigation is moving along at a faster clip. Michael, the president has made this comparison, calling him a rat over the weekend, talking about john dean, of course, the former white House Counsel<\/a> back during the nixon days. Somebody who did we talk about truth, right, and he told the truth about watergate. Told the truth about what he knew. Key witness for the prosecution during it. Told Senate Committee<\/a> and investigators that nixon was deeply involved in the coverup. Ended up serving four months in a federal safe house. Perceived by the president as a rat. Is that a tell, michael, in your view . No. The president has had a long standing obsession with john dean. Hes talked about him a lot in the white house. You know, sort of, obviously, calling him a rat behind closed doors, and now doing it publicly. Something that sort of concerned him. He always thought dean sold out the president. Whats interesting here, and what i think the president s legal strategy is, what theyre trying to show, is that the president also does not need to go in and do the interview because theyre going to say now that mueller has mcgahn. He has someone who was in the room who can speak to his mindset, that can give them the facts that they could get from the president. Why do you need to interview the president . The problem is, most legal experts will say that if youre mueller, and youre trying to find out whether the president had criminal intent when he took the actions, like firing comey, you really need to ask him, not someone else who was there. Michael schmidt, tom dupree, thank you for being on the show. Ill ask nancy and carol to stick around. The president s former fixer, Michael Cohen<\/a>, has already suggested he is ready to cooperate with prosecutors. Now, were learning more about what the government might have as leverage. Including allegations of fraud in more than 20 million worth of bank loans. What does this mean for the special counsel investigation . Were getting into that after the break. You right now that i i believe, i really do believe that somethings got a hold on me, yeah oh, it must be love oh, somethings got a hold on me right now, child oh, it must be love let me tell you now, oh it must be love you always get the lowest price on our rooms, guaranteed . Lets say it in a really low voice. Carl . Lowest price, guaranteed. Just stick with badda book. Badda boom. Book now at choicehotels. Com this wifi is fast. I know i know i know i know when did brian move back in . Brians back . He doesnt get my room. Hes only going to be here for like a week. Like a month, tops. Oh boy. Wifi fast enough for the whole family is simple, easy, awesome. In many cultures, young men would stay with their families until their 40s. This morning, federal prosecutors in new york seemed to be closing in on Michael Cohen<\/a> as part of their investigation into whether the president s former personal attorney committed tax and bank fraud and whether he may have violated Campaign Finance<\/a> laws. Nbc news is confirming the report by the New York Times<\/a> that prosecutors are mulling over how and when to serve cohen with an indictment. Nbcs tom winter has been the tip of the spear on this reporting for us. He is joining me from new york. What do we know about the timing here, what the Southern District<\/a> is planning to do, and then how it relates to the special counsel investigation . Sure, hallie. The key thing here is that the Southern District<\/a> really wants to follow their normal practice. All the normal ways they do this investigation. They want it to be as routine as possible. They know there is a tremendous amount of public scrutiny on the case. They know anything that they do, any action they do, is going to be looked at. They normally when they do the public corruption and they do these cases that politically charged, they stick to the guidelines, letting them know when they can make moves in a case. Obviously, an indictment is a significant move in a case. If they were to seek the indictment, theyll want to do it before labor day or after election day, to keep within department of justice guidelines. I think thats why youre starting to hear now that they may seek an indictment by the end of the month. Makes sense based on what i heard. The other thing, they can indict Michael Cohen<\/a>, then they can come back later, if they find more information, and they can put forth a superceding indictment. They can also indict cohen and have a discussion about a cooperation agreement. There is nothing here that precludes them from doing that. There is specific things on the calendar that say, you either have to move soon or move after election. Move away later, yeah. Exactly. Tom winter, thank you. Let me bring in Jeff Jacobowitz<\/a> who represented clinton officials. T if youre Michael Cohen<\/a>, what is your next move . We have a combination. Theres one other alternative, as well, which is they can indict him under seal and not reveal it until after the election. Theyre following the rules of not indicting somebody after august if there is an election. If youre cohen, youre trying to cooperate. There was distinct silence the last few weeks, and everybody thought cohen might have been cooperating. Could have been it hasnt worked out. Either, one, youre gearing up to fight the case or, two, youre starting to produce the tapes and cooperating to mueller or the Southern District<\/a>. Boy, theyre listening to a lot of tapes, between omarosa and cohen. Do you get any sense though that cohen is trying to fight with prosecutors here . It seems like all of his public signals have been, yo, im not buds with president giving the signals back. There is a report from politico that his lawyer is talking to john dean, who we mentioned last segment. Your thoughts . The sense is, hes trying to cooperate and get a pardon from trump. Looks like it is going by the wayside. He is trying to cooperate. Nobody wants to go to trial in a bank and tax fraud case with immication i implications of the tax fraud finance payments. The open question is, theres definitely some very serious charges against cohen, but the question is, does he have enough that the prosecutors and the special investigators want to cut a deal with him . I think that the charges against him alone could be very significant, but that is the thing that im watching. Carol, youre nodding. Yeah. You know, Michael Cohen<\/a> has basically been, for weeks, im available, you know. Hey, guys. Come chat. Right over here. He clearly wants to Say Something<\/a>. He looks like the perception, at least, is that he really wants it. To nancys point, it really matters whether mueller not muellers team but federal investigators think he has valuable enough information. Given what we know about how much theyve taken from him, you know, who knows if they think they need him personally. He is also in this web of the Stormy Daniels<\/a> story, right . The alleged affair she had with the president , which the president denies. Daniels was talking on a show over in the uk. I want to play a clip. This is just happening today. Watch. My court has a stay. My court date got pushed back, which i thought id be done with before Celebrity Big Brother<\/a> sta started. I needed to talk to my attorney, which is the reason from shortening it to one week. What are your thoughts on donald trump . I think that he is a man who has gotten in over his head. Daniels annoys the president , right . He hates when shes in the spotlight. He tweets about, you know, concern about all of this, when this happens. Shes still talking. She might fade in and out but shes here to stay. Finds a way to tweak him, you know, and say that he is in over his head. The subtext of that is that because im here to continue talking about him and drawing attention to this. Then you have daniels lawyer, jeff, and im curious about this, Michael Avenatti<\/a> was in New Hampshire<\/a> yesterday. The hillsborough democratic event. He was in iowa as a reporter on the show before that, making noise about a possible president ial run. Making political overtures. At the same time, at the epicenter of this huge case against President Trump<\/a>. Too much splitting of the attention . He has two jobs now. Hes running for president and defending Stormy Daniels<\/a>. Maybe a third job where he was appearing on television. He is a busy guy. He has shown he can handle it. Stormy daniels has been out of the news for a while. Of omarosa and Michael Cohen<\/a>. Now, there are three people out there with information related to trump who are out there on the news. Omarosa says she has video. She has video and tapes. Everything she has played, in terms of the tapes, has corroborated whats in her book. Jeff, thank you for coming in. Carol and nancy, hang out longer. Up next, the president tweeting moments ago about the former intel leader whose security clearance he yanked. Former cia director john brennan says he is ready to take donald trump to court, as more than 100 officials slam the president s move. Plus, following the money. A leading voice in the me too movement facing claims of Sexual Assault<\/a> of her own. How many she apparently agreed to pay her accuser to try to keep it quiet. Belly fat the chili pepper sweatout. Not cool. Freezing away fat cells with coolsculpting . 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In his letter released early this morning, pope francis writes, the heartwrenching pain of these victims, which cries out to heaven, was long ignored, kept quiet or silenced, and goes on to write, we showed no care for the little ones. We abandoned them. The pope did not outline any detailed steps, for example, for how the Catholic Church<\/a> should prevent this from happening again. Last hour on msnbc, church abuse survivor shaun daoherty. Zero tolerance . We heard it after boston. What is it . What we didnt hear is, im sorry. I am from this point forward pleading with the Pennsylvania Senate<\/a> leadership to enact the recommendations of the grand jury and listen to and help these victims. Were following that story. Another clinton may be running for office. Yes, that is correct. Were talking about chelsea clinton, the daughter of bill and hillary. She is considering taking a stab at politics, saying, it is a definite maybe in her future. For now, at least, it is off the table. At least one person has died this morning after a u. S. Military helicopter crashed today in iraq. The chopper was reportedly out on a counterterror mission. Right now, no indications enemy fire brought it down, but the whole thing is under investigation. Just in the last maybe five minutes or so, President Trump<\/a> is tweeting his response to cia director, former, and nbc news analyst john brennan, who threatened this weekend to take the president to court. The tweet calls brennan the worst cia director in our countrys history. And says, he wont sue, although the president hopes he does. It comes as the clap back to donald trump is getting louder after the yanking of the security clearance happened. The president threatened to do the same to others. This morning, more than 175 people are, today, adding their names to a statement, opposing what the president did. This new list includes former career officials at the state, defense, justice department, and others who worked on the National Security<\/a> council at nasa, ten former u. S. Ambassa r ambassadors and 20 former attorneys. Some are nbc news analysts or contributors adding their name to the list. I want to show you john brennan on meet the press telling kruk todd why he thinks court action may be necessary. If my clearances and my reputation, as im being pulled through the mud now, if that is the price were going to pay to prevent donald trump from doing this against other people, to me, it is a small price to pay. I am going to do whatever i can personally to try to prevent these abuses in the future. If it means going to court, i will do that. Joining me now is john mclaughlin, former acting cia director and Global Affairs<\/a> analyst. Former cia officer david priest is joining me, as well. Both of you signed onto the statement. Your reaction to the president s tweets, calling brennan a hack, in his words. Saying, i hope he sues, but i dont think he will. I think the president is not on safe ground here. Ive been involved in these cases before. They frequently do go to a court. Theyre called administrative courts. Thats part of the procedure, when someone has a clearance pulled. There was an appeals process. There is a court procedure, if you want to invoke it. Quite frequently, the administrative courts will restore a clearance. I could see a judge here ruling that the president exceeded his authority in this case. John brennan would have to take those steps to take the action and move forward with that, right . Hed have to move it forward. You said this morning the mission of the cia is so strong, and because of that, the episode is not affecting the state of our National Security<\/a>. David, i want to get your reaction to that. Do you think gina haspel is talking privately to those . Is she reassuring them . Im confident some conversations are happening. I dont know whether it is directed at a level or not. Ill tell you what ive heard, ive had some currently serving officers at cia and other agencies tell me kind of a quiet thank you for saying things we cant. More often, what im hearing is silence. The best conversation i had was with a friend of mine working inside. He said, whoa, its been a busy weekend. I said, yeah, crazy, with all this news. He said, what news . I was at work all weekend, working on somish she issues. He put his head down and was doing his job. Hopefully all these signatories, republicans, democrats, many nonpartisans from the last two decades of National Security<\/a> signing this, hopefully by us signing letters like this, were keeping them from having to try to speak out and have the conversations. Maybe they can just do their jobs to protect us. I was going to add, this kind of thing that the president has done, it does put poison in the water. It puts a chill through the system. But it is incumbent on leaders at this point to buck everyone up and keep them focused on the mission. Im confident that the leaders we have in the Intelligence Community<\/a> will do that. Gina haspel has put together a very strong team at the cia. Thats what shes been spending her time doing. The president s rational is something weve heard before. He talks about, oh, security clearances from former officials gives prestige, money, and gives them different things. Youre immediately scoffing. It is a red herring. Two directions to go here. One, security clearances dont come from the individual. It is not as if i dont know and i can walk in and say, we get a security clearance. I dont have one. I dont need one. It has to be a government sponsor who justified it. For example, briefing their successors, having conversations with those who take the positions after them. It eases that. It facilitates that. Even that is not necessary. You can still have good conversations without it. It is not a moneymaking endeavor for most people. When you look at whats next, what is the next shoe to drop . Weve gotten real hints about what it could be, based on who else the president has tweeted about this weekend six times. A guy named bruce orr. He is a current employee of the trump administration, right . Hes come under fire by republicans over his contacts with simpson, for example, the cofounder of fusion, gps. Why is this specific case, john, and the president s tweets about him, troubling to you . Two reasons, i think. First, by focusing on bruce ohr, the president is trying to take attention off of the real reason the russia investigation began, which had actually very little to do with the dossier and Glenn Simpson<\/a> and all of that. It began, of course, when an australian diplomat tipped the United States<\/a> to the fact that george papadopoulos. He said, i have dirt on clinton from the russians, and ill give it to the trump campaign. That kicked this off. I think by talking about ohr, hes trying to shift attention away from that. Ohr as a serving officer, you take away his clearance, basically, youre taking away his livelihood, and i think it sends a different message. It crosses a line the president has crossed yet. Former cia Deputy Director<\/a> david cohen said this about the implications of the ohr threat. I am worried that you will have analysts in the agency, not the directors, but line analysts who think, you know, do i want to, you know, brief in the oval office, this analysis that says, you know, that north korea is restarting its nuclear program, or that iran is abiding by the deal, something that is directly contrary to the president s interests. Is that in my interest to do that . What david cohen is talking at here is the encryption on the wall, ye hashall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. They describe situations as they see it. Revoking the security clearance of someone for their views would get in the way of the truth telling me need in National Security<\/a>. David and john, thank you both for talking through this. Pleasure to have you both here. Appreciate it. Coming up after the break, bombshell claims against one of Harvey Weinsteins<\/a> earliest accusers who is now facing Sexual Assault<\/a> allegations of her own from a former child actor. What this might mean for her role in the me too movement coming up. I never count the wrinkles. And i dont add up the years. But what i do count on. Is staying happy and healthy. So, i add protein, vitamins and minerals to my diet with boost\u00ae. New boost\u00ae high protein nutritional drink now has 33 more highquality protein, along with 26 essential and minerals your body needs. 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Learn more about why you should choose an aarp Medicare Supplement<\/a> plan. Call today for a free guide. Medicare supplement plan. electronic dance music we want that talk about new claims this morning against one of the woman whose name has been synonymous with the me too movement. Aalli italian and actress asia argento. Shes facing accusations of Sexual Assault<\/a> herself. Allegations havent been verified. I want to bring in Stephanie Gosk<\/a> who has been following the story from new york. What are the pieces here . Reporter first, large piece here, argento herself, and you talked about it, she is one of the foremost woman coming out in the me too movement, accusing weinstein of rape. She was also Anthony Bourdains<\/a> girlfriend. She not a lot of attention when he took his own life tragically back in june. You also may remember her because she gave an impassioned speech in may at the cannes film festival. Behind the scenes, she was dealing with Sexual Assault<\/a> allegations against her. Overnight, shocking, new allegations against one of the me too movements most prominent voices. The New York Times<\/a> reporting italian actress and director asia argento, the former girlfriend of anthony bourdain, arranged to pay 380,000 to Jimmy Bennett<\/a> after the actor claimed he was sexually assaulted in a hotel room when he was just 17 in 2013. The payment arrangement alle allegedly made not long after argento herself publicly accused producer Harvey Weinstein<\/a> of rape and Sexual Assault<\/a>. The new claim detailed to the times through encrypted email said argento was a mother figure to bennet, and they were in contact while he was growing up. He was cast at age 7 to be argentos son in the 2004 film the heart is deceitful above all things. You will not trash this house. Reporter the documents characterized by the times as a legal agreement between lawyers described bennets version of the encounter. They havent been verified independently by nbc news. On may 9, 2013, bennet said he arrived to the hotel with a Family Member<\/a> for a reunion with argento. After asking the Family Member<\/a> to leave to be alone with the actor, bennet said argento gave him alcohol and a series of notes he had written to him on hotel stationary. Argento kissed bennet, removing his pants, and performing oral sex, before having sex with him. Later that day, she posted to instagram, happiest day of my life. Reunion with jimmy bennet. The two had lunch. Later, bennet began feeling, quote, extremely confused, mortified, and disgusted. In an april letter addressed to argento confirming the final deal, the payment is characterized as, quote, helping mr. Bennet. Argento became a leading voice in the me too movement after telling the new york that weinstein raped her in 1997 when she was 21. Weinstein faces multiple charges of Sexual Assault<\/a> and rape. None including argento. He denies all allegations of nonconsensual sex. We reached out to argento. She didnt respond to a request for comment. Also, jimmy bennets lawyer said hell have a statement within the next 24 hours. Rose mcgowan has responded, as well. Rose mcgowan is the other name that comes out when you think of the me too movement. Also accused Harvey Weinstein<\/a> of rape. In her tweet, she said, i got to know argento ten months ago. Our commonality is the pain of being assaulted by weinstein. My heart is broken. I will continue my work on behalf of victims everywhere. Hallie . Nbcs Stephanie Gosk<\/a> reporting for us there from new york. Thanks for coming on. Welcome. Coming up, a tale of two wings of the white house. The first lady speaking out against cyberbullying this morning. The president spending the weekend on a twitter tirade. Is the west wing distracting from the east wings message . Were talking about that next. Know what . No, what . I just switched to geico and got more. More . Got a company i can trust. Thats a heck of a lot more. Over 75 years of great savings and service. You cant argue with more. Why would ya . Geico. Expect great savings and a whole lot more. Booking a flight doesnt have to be expensive. Just go to priceline. Its the best place to book a flight a few days before my trip and still save up to 40 . Just tap and go. For the best savings on flights, go to priceline. Moderate to severe Rheumatoid Arthritis<\/a> was intense. My moms pain from i wondered if she could do the stuff she does for us which is kinda, a lot. And if that pain could mean something worse. Joint pain could mean joint damage. 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In todays global society, social media is a part of our childrens daily lives. It can be used in many positive ways but can also be detrack die and harmful when used incorrectly. That was First Lady Melania Trump<\/a> within the last hour at a summit to stop cyberbullying. The talk was, as always, an interesting juxtaposition with her husbands behavior online. The president , for example, called his former staffer a lowlife and a dog. Called her whacky and deranged. Called a New York Times<\/a> board member disgusting. Former c irkcia director john bn a hack. And bloumenthal a loser. Thats all within the last week. One week. Lets look at the first ladys push on be best with kristen welker. Kristen, lets talk through this discussion. I understand the first lady sat in the front row as the Panel Discussion<\/a> on cyberbullying happened. Her office is now responding to some of the questions about the what critics might call hypocrisy, between the first ladys moves and the president s actions. Reporter thats right. The first ladys office pushing back against the criticism. Just to remind our viewers, in addition to tweets you referenced over the past week, here are some of the president s tweets from just this morning. I hope john brennan, the worst c cia director in the nations history would bring a lawsuit. Itd be easy to get over his records. He calls muellers probe a rigged witch hunt, which he has used before. He then called mueller disgraced and discredited in another series of tweets. Of course, as you pointed out, last week, raised eyebrows calling omarosa a dog. Gri the first ladys office saying this wont deter her from doing what she thinks is right. I would hope people in the country are proud they have a first lady that only has the interest of children at heart. I know i am. This is a striking juxtaposition, hallie. Just to set the scene of what we did see today, the first lady speaking in rockville, maryland. She was talking to representatives from social media companies, Law Enforcement<\/a> organizations, as well as educational organizations. She really directed a lot of her comments at the adults today. Take a listen to what she had to say. Lets say. Lets face it. Most children are more aware of the benefits and pitfalls of social media than some adults, but we still need to do all we can to provide them with information and tools for successful and safe online habits. Of course, all of this an outgrowth of her be best initiative which she first announced in may. Kristen welker who is always being best. See you soon. So carol, the statement from stephanie grich m, the spokesperson who said yeah, she gets the criticism, but thats not going to stop her from doing what she feels is right. Good enough . They clearly feel like this is a win for her despite the, as you were pointing out, the hypocrisy. What i find most interesting about the way her office is casting her and the way shes chosen to cast herself, is you hear them use the word strong, independent. These are not necessarily phrases that you would hear from first lady eas offices in the past. Michelle obama, they were trying to down play that. Her spokesperson saying no one tells the first lady what to do. Thats true, but no one has really ever said that out loud. What you see is not only in her actions in terms of be best and the pushback and continuing to do it despite the criticism, but also in the way theyre talking about her in her role. They really want her to be seen as somebody independent and her own thinker. Politically you could argue that may make him, the president , somehow seem be softened in some way. Why . Why would they want to do that . Because i think that she is. I think that if you look at this is kind of who she is. Right. But people it seems to me just in conversations. People dont necessarily have that perception. The times did a profile on the first lady saying shes the strongest voice in the president s life. A person says she listens to her more intently than anyone. I think thats not the impression that some folks of this the first lady. If she is the strongest voice in the president s life, couldnt she do more to stop him from the things that contrast with her be best campaign . I think she sort of criticizes him privately and he listens to her. We saw that with the policy of separating Migrant Children<\/a> from families. She was an opponent. She went down to the border and made the trips alone. I feel like there have been some policy issues where they disagreed. And weve seen that. She lives a separate life from the president. They sleep in separate rooms in the residence. They have separate lives. Their staffs run completely differently. The west wing, you always hear about the drama and the palace intrigue and people leaving. The east wing with her staff, you really dont hear much about that. Even though there have been some high profile changes in her office. Her policy director. Just leaving. But we didnt hear that much about that. Stick around a little longer. I want to hear what your sources are saying about the stories youre working on and we want to end with todays big picture. Well be right back. Lets get to carolyn man si an what your sources are saying anything. Anything youre doing. Nancy, what do your sources say . Ill be curious to watch how long don mcgahn stays in the white house. I think theres a sense he would leave after the a confirmation. A republican told me recently because he feels like he potentially will shoulder some of the blame in the mueller investigation, he doesnt want to leave. I feel like it will be interesting to see if he leaves in october or november or if he stays on even though i dont think he wants to in this role simply because the investigation is continuing. To protect himself from the incoming, almost. Of course. Carol, what are your sources telling about whats next to drop . Ive been looking at afghanistan. Tomorrow is the oneyear anniversary of trump announcing his strategy there. We saw yesterday the president of afghanistan announced a cease fire with the taliban. There was another look at the prince plan and the advisers trying to keep him away from that and not withdrawing. We learned there was a strategy review plan for that that they decided they werent going to do, and its unclear exactly why, but the speculation is that the news is so bad they didnt want to push the president in a certain direction toward the prince plan or withdrawing. The cease fire the president in afghanistan announce second down just the thing that his advisers are likely to latch onto and say lets stay the course. Interesting. Love having you both on for the full hour. Thank you. We want to wrap up with todays big picture. And today it comes to us from boston. Check out this girl. This woman, i should say. That is simone biles. Hes at the u. S. Gymnastics championships. She won every single gold medal there. Shes the first woman to do it since 1994. She is just 21. Its an amazing feat for anyone. Shes in a teal leotard. You see that . She says that is because she wants to show her support for sexual abuse survivors. You might remember biles came forward in january as one of the hundreds of women abused by the team doctor. Now shes using her platform to speak up and out. An amazing woman. An amazing accomplishment. I cant wait for the next olympics where shell compete. Brad berry from getty is the photographer there. Ill see you on nightly news tonight with lester holt. Ali velshi, youre a sight for sore eyes. Great to have you back here, friend. Thank you. Dont go far. Well need you. Have a great one. Good morning, everyone. Im ali velshi. Stephanie rule is off. Its monday, august 20th. Lets get smarter. When you tell me he should testify because hes going to tell the truth, and he shouldnt worry, thats silly. Its somebodys version of the truth. Not the truth. He didnt have a conversation. Truth is truth. I dont mean to go it isnt truth. Truth isnt truth. We have a good sense, obviously, of what mr. Mcgahn testified to. You dont know 100 of what he testified to to mr. Mueller . I think threw john doud we have a pretty good sense. This shows what a legal team the president had. Michael cohens legal problems just got much much worse over the past weekend which, of course, applies even more pressure to donald trump. Prosecutors considering filing charges by the end of the month. 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