Transcripts For MSNBCW MSNBC Live With Richard Lui 20191026

That the impeachment inquiry is illegitimate. That same judge says the Justice Department must turn over secret grand jury material from the Mueller Report and they need to do it by wednesday. Outside of d. C. , democratic president ial candidates are at a criminal Justice Forum made controller by an appearance by President Trump. But first, its our six under the lights for one diplomat. Acting assistant secretary of european and Eurasian Affairs testified before three congressional committees. Reeker appears today before congress under subpoena despite the state department discouraging his appearance. Communications with key officials with efforts by President Trump and Rudy Giuliani to pressure ukraine into investigating political enemies. And what did secretary of state pompeo know and when . Just overnight a legal ruling that both leader pelosi and the president are watching closely. Charles kupperman is to appear monday for the inquiry, but his lawyer wants clarification from the courts. Who should he be compelled to follow requests from . The white house in its request for executive privilege . Or the inquiry subpoena for him to show up . Back to the other big court ruling in the last 24 hours. A federal judge says the impeachment inquiry is illegitimate, or rather is legitimate, not to be authorized by a house vote. It does not need that. The doj must turn over relevant grand jury evidence from the Mueller Report to the house judiciary committee. Lets go to correspondent leigh ann caldwell, White House Correspondent kelly odonnell, Georgetown Law School professor paul butler, and political Senior Legal Affairs writer and msnbc contributor josh ger stean. How is philip reeker doing . Hour six more or less right now hes been behind closed doors . Yeah. Weve just begun our sixth. Its a longer day than we anticipated. We were told he would wrap up around 2 00 or 3 00, but sounds like reeker has a lot to say. Republicans and democrats keep going back and forth asking him questions. One democratic congressman representative lynch from massachusetts emerged from these closeddoor depositions saying reek certify a quote reservoir of information. Hes corroborating what a lot of previous testimonies have already said. We know that reeker is supposed to talk about the ouster of the former ambassador to ukraine, marie yovanovitch. We know from other testimonies that Rudy Giuliani, the president s personal lawyer recommended to the president that yovanovitch should be ousted and that the president agreed to that. And so she was recalled from her position in may. We also just learned just now from a republican lawmaker who came out from this deposition. I asked him if mike pompeo, the role of mike pompeo was discussed behind those closed doors. He said yes, it was. He wouldnt go into a lot of details, but we know thats a big question, especially for democrats and these geshl investigators on what role mike pompeo had. What did he know about the Shadow State Department operating in ukraine, and what did he do about it . But richard, we are also told that we could have at least two more hours left of this deposition, so the day is not over yet. Which has been typical for those who have come to give testimony so far on the hill. Kelly, your White House Correspondent hat on right now and the ruling that came down from the federal judge saying this is legitimate. On top of that you must turn over documents that are related to the Mueller Report. How is the white house reacting to that ruling that happened just within the last 24 hours . Certainly the department of justice has the opportunity to appeasement although we havent been given notification of that, one might expect they would because the court has given them a a few days for a deadline to turn over the material that had been redacted in the report that we all were able to read. So this would give the lawmakers who are a part of the impeachment inquiry access to the secrets of the Mueller Report that the white house has fought very hard and the administration has fought hard to keep secret arguing that grand jury proceedings and things that are typically in an investigative process kept secret, should remain so. But as you point out, the court looked at this and said the impeachment inquiry is a lawful judicial process, and there are exceptions for judicial processes where grand jurytype information, redacted content is permitted to be shared with the understanding that not doing so could be harmful. So it is a big decision and one that the president has not directly reacted to, but he has used his twitter feed to talk about the fact that hes not concerned about this and protesting that he did not do anything wrong. There will be the back and forth. Weve seen the strategy of the white house to try to slow down what lawmakers are doing with respect to the impeachment inquiry because they believe that is helpful to them, although Court Decisions like this certainly put into perspective the peril of fighting back. Now, again, could they appeal, we expect thats a possibility. But for the white house having this information shared, we dont know how consequential it will be now that the focus is on ukraine and everything related to the Mueller Investigation is an earlier chapter. But expect there will be pushback from the white house because thats the playbook they use. Richard . And the playbook in this case when you look at it, paul butler, this is not a decision that was brief, shall we say. It was 70plus pages. From your perspective, how big a deal was judge howells statements and the homework she put into this. Its important for two reasons. First, congress will get to see information that bill barr said congress shouldnt see. So typically grand jury information is secret, Even Congress cant look at it. An exception is when theres an impeachment. During the nixon impeachment hearings, a court ruled that congress could, under those circumstances, see information that previously is briktd federal law. And so, again, a lot of it depends on how much you have confidence in the attorney general. A lot of us think he acted more like trumps personal attorney than chief Law Enforcement officer of the United States. Now Congress Gets to see everything that made a difference to the Mueller Investigation. More importantly, richard, for the investigation for the ukrainian investigation, the judge said that this is the fact an impeachment inquiry. As you noticed, she wrote a long scholarly decision where she basically threw trumps defense that because they hadnt authorized an impeachment inquiry, she threw that out of the water. She said thats not only not required, its not supported in the constitution and its not supported by Previous Court cases. So josh, i guess for those who might be watching on both sides of the aisle here, is what she wrote somewhat appealproof . Usually when a judge goes to that length in an opinion, theyre trying to lay out their reasoning in a way that would be at least easy for an Appeals Court to understand and maybe harder to pick apart. She gave many different grounds for several of her views laid out in this opinion. What we have to keep in mind, kendis, is not just the possibility of an appeal but how many cases like this are backed up behind it. You have a lawsuit involving don mcgahn, former white House Counsel fighting a subpoena he received. You have four lawsuits relating to the president s tax and financial records. When one judge comes out and says the impeachment is valid, the subpoenas are valid, you need to comply with what the house is doing, it can have sort of a Snowball Effect in encouraging other judges to reach similar conclusions which could be problematic for the white house, even on the current ukraine investigation now we have a new suit filed yesterday by the former Deputy National security adviser asking if his subpoena is valid. I think judge howells ruling could really make its way through all those different decisions. Leigh ann, are the democrats celebrating in a small way . This could be potentially a big decision for them. They absolutely are celebrating. Of course they know the reality that this will likely be appealed, but for the time being, theyre saying it gives not only democrats but theyre saying the house of representatives a big win here. It shows the Congressional Authority and the power that they have in the celebration of branches here. And so theyre saying that this is a big win for them, for the people, and it really undercuts what the republicans and the white house have been saying, that this is a sham impeachment process. And the white house has been pointing to the fact that the house of representatives have not held a vote on the house floor to open an impeachment inquiry as our previous guest indicated. The judge said that is not necessary, so democrats are legitimately involved in this impeachment inquiry and theyre plowing on forward. Kelly, its exciting for all of you that work in the beltway this civics lesson were watching in front of us as was alluded by josh carlson cooperman here. What might happen here . Hes basically saying do i listen to the white house or the subpoena coming down from the inquiry . He is caught in a place that would be hard for anyone, especially a Public Servant who wants to do the right thing to deal with. He believes that hes been ordered by the white house not to comply because he was a member of the executive branch. At the same time he says theres a competing and irreconcilable wish from the legislative branch that he would come forward and would provide testimony, and he is saying that when there is a clash between the branches, it is the judicial arm of our government that should in effect play referee. And so he is saying, according to his lawyer, that he has no particular opinion about whether he should or should not, but wants the court to decide. He is due to appear on monday, and so it will be interesting to see when we would hear any kind of a decision about that as leigh ann pointed out. Its now becoming a six or sevenday a week business in the impeachment inquiry in washington for all of the time concerns that democrats have. And so it will be interesting to see when we would learn about the fate of his testimony and if he would need to be rescheduled, if itll happen at all. But it could, of course, set the framework for how many highprofile and important witnesses could be treated. Bolton being one of those words out there, right, as we look forward in the discussion so far. Great to have you, kelly odonnell, White House Correspondent for us. Please stick around. Well talk to you in a little bit. Coming up, as more bombshells continue to drop, Rudy Giuliani is getting pressure as increasing scrutiny is aimed at him. The big question, might he be indicted . you look amazing. And you look amazingly comfortable. When your vneck looks more like a uneck. Thats when you know, its halfwashed. Try downy fabric conditioner. Unlike detergent alone, downy helps prevent stretching by conditioning and smoothing fibers, so clothes look newer, longer. Downy and its done. We know a thing or two because weve seen a thing or two. Even a ernie lost rubber duckie . burke you mean this one . ernie rubber duckie cookie what about a broken cookie jar . burke again, cookie . cookie yeah. Me bad. grover yoooooow oh what about monsters having accidents . I am okay by the way burke depends. Did you cause the accident, grover . grover cause an accident . Maybe. bert how do you know all this stuff . burke just comes with experience. all muppets yup. We are farmers. Bumpadum, bumbumbumbum. Welcome back. Rudy giuliani indicted, well, not at the moment. The president s lawyer, though, is under scrutiny after two of his associates were indicted this week over dealings linked to the ukraine scandal that triggered the impeachment inquiry. Now, theres speculation the former u. S. Attorney could face charges of his own for allegedly acting as an unregistered foreign agent. This comes amid reporting by cnn that giuliani is on the hunt for his own personal defense attorney now. Meanwhile the New York Times reports the president and giuliani are moving forward with even more attacks on joe biden. This is over son hunters work for a romanian batman who faces corruption charges. The only problem is that Rudy Giuliani also worked for that very same romanian businessman that was a couple years after hunter biden supposedly did. Then this new bit of information courtesy of a giuliani butt dial to an nbc news reporter. In that call hes heard on voicemail discussing his business dealings overseas and a big sum of cash. All right. Joining us now, as ash win sang and Josh Gerstein and paul butler. What do you make of the call. Well start with that. Not a lot of details. We do hear big numbers. We hear turkey in there too. Well, when it comes to Rudy Giulianis foreign work, the story gets much broader and gets very international very quickly with a variety of countries. For instance, this was i think the term bahrain was mentioned on that same call that you just played a little bit of the audio from. As we reported at the daily beast earlier this year, Rudy Giuliani, while he was still representing the president of the United States as the Mueller Probe was wrapping up, giuliani was in negotiations with the ministry of the interior of the kingdom of bahrain, a small island nation in the persian gulf, for his Security Company to do police and Security Consulting for the bahrainny security and police services. This is something that he ended up inking a deal for and was simultaneously doing that side gig while serving as personal attorney for president donald trump. Some may see that as a bit of a conflict or something giving the appearance of a conflict given that the government in bahrain wants a lot of things from the trump administration, including foreign aid and assistance. But because Rudy Giuliani has never worked for donald trump in a capacity as, say, white House Counsel or white house attorney, he doesnt have to abide by these rules, even if the appearance of. Where do you use solid line of scrimmage lines with what Rudy Giuliani is doing as described to us . Rudy is steadilily hustling business hes the president s lawyer, private lawyer and fixer, and he uses that access to trump to try to get results for his client. The federal criminal law requires that if you lobby u. S. Officials on behalf of foreign nationals, you have to register. And if you dont rectangle, you have committed a felony. We know that giuliani hasnt registered, so the question is the kind of work that hes doing for his clients. If youre the prosecutors here, josh, and you were writing on this extensively on this very question, whats going to happen with Rudy Giuliani, is he going to go to jail is what your headline was. If you get Rudy Giuliani, do you get President Trump . Well, hes tying himself closely to the president at the moment, and the president is returning the love. There was a tweet earlier this week where giuliani was mostly quiet, sort of uncharacteristically for him. And then we had the president come out and make another statement supporting rudy as a crime fighter and a guy whos fighting corruption around the world. So i think theres a mutual hug going on here between these two men, which side put the president in some jeopardy if prosecutors decided to come after rudy. That said, i think things like making a fortune agent case against somebody in court as a criminal matter has proven have have tricky for the Justice Department. Ive sat through two trials related to that just in the last few months. And at the end of these cases the Justice Department ended up with egg on its face basically because it turns out that kind of case is a lot harder to prove as a criminal matter than sending somebody a letter and saying maybe you should be registered, would you mind filling out this paperwork. Is this question of how the at the moment the attorney general and the department of justice might be looking at Rudy Giuliani, now looking into a criminal investigation, which means many more powers and complaints coming from the attorney general around the legal question of Rudy Giuliani. Sure. Its too early to say one way or the other if Rudy Giuliani actually will get indicted or spend any time in prison. Its obviously way too early to get to that. We have to see where this whole saga evolves to. If he ends up in even similar legal jeopardy or legally muddy waters as those two associates, fruman and parnas, again, way too early to tell. This wouldnt be the first time in recent memory that a person who likes going on tv and likes ostentatiously being public about his fervent support for donald trump were indicted. This obviously happened with Justice Department<\/a> must turn over secret grand jury material from the Mueller Report<\/a> and they need to do it by wednesday. Outside of d. C. , democratic president ial candidates are at a criminal Justice Forum<\/a> made controller by an appearance by President Trump<\/a>. But first, its our six under the lights for one diplomat. Acting assistant secretary of european and Eurasian Affairs<\/a> testified before three congressional committees. Reeker appears today before congress under subpoena despite the state department discouraging his appearance. Communications with key officials with efforts by President Trump<\/a> and Rudy Giuliani<\/a> to pressure ukraine into investigating political enemies. And what did secretary of state pompeo know and when . Just overnight a legal ruling that both leader pelosi and the president are watching closely. Charles kupperman is to appear monday for the inquiry, but his lawyer wants clarification from the courts. Who should he be compelled to follow requests from . The white house in its request for executive privilege . Or the inquiry subpoena for him to show up . Back to the other big court ruling in the last 24 hours. A federal judge says the impeachment inquiry is illegitimate, or rather is legitimate, not to be authorized by a house vote. It does not need that. The doj must turn over relevant grand jury evidence from the Mueller Report<\/a> to the house judiciary committee. Lets go to correspondent leigh ann caldwell, White House Correspondent<\/a> kelly odonnell, Georgetown Law School<\/a> professor paul butler, and political Senior Legal Affairs<\/a> writer and msnbc contributor josh ger stean. How is philip reeker doing . Hour six more or less right now hes been behind closed doors . Yeah. Weve just begun our sixth. Its a longer day than we anticipated. We were told he would wrap up around 2 00 or 3 00, but sounds like reeker has a lot to say. Republicans and democrats keep going back and forth asking him questions. One democratic congressman representative lynch from massachusetts emerged from these closeddoor depositions saying reek certify a quote reservoir of information. Hes corroborating what a lot of previous testimonies have already said. We know that reeker is supposed to talk about the ouster of the former ambassador to ukraine, marie yovanovitch. We know from other testimonies that Rudy Giuliani<\/a>, the president s personal lawyer recommended to the president that yovanovitch should be ousted and that the president agreed to that. And so she was recalled from her position in may. We also just learned just now from a republican lawmaker who came out from this deposition. I asked him if mike pompeo, the role of mike pompeo was discussed behind those closed doors. He said yes, it was. He wouldnt go into a lot of details, but we know thats a big question, especially for democrats and these geshl investigators on what role mike pompeo had. What did he know about the Shadow State Department<\/a> operating in ukraine, and what did he do about it . But richard, we are also told that we could have at least two more hours left of this deposition, so the day is not over yet. Which has been typical for those who have come to give testimony so far on the hill. Kelly, your White House Correspondent<\/a> hat on right now and the ruling that came down from the federal judge saying this is legitimate. On top of that you must turn over documents that are related to the Mueller Report<\/a>. How is the white house reacting to that ruling that happened just within the last 24 hours . Certainly the department of justice has the opportunity to appeasement although we havent been given notification of that, one might expect they would because the court has given them a a few days for a deadline to turn over the material that had been redacted in the report that we all were able to read. So this would give the lawmakers who are a part of the impeachment inquiry access to the secrets of the Mueller Report<\/a> that the white house has fought very hard and the administration has fought hard to keep secret arguing that grand jury proceedings and things that are typically in an investigative process kept secret, should remain so. But as you point out, the court looked at this and said the impeachment inquiry is a lawful judicial process, and there are exceptions for judicial processes where grand jurytype information, redacted content is permitted to be shared with the understanding that not doing so could be harmful. So it is a big decision and one that the president has not directly reacted to, but he has used his twitter feed to talk about the fact that hes not concerned about this and protesting that he did not do anything wrong. There will be the back and forth. Weve seen the strategy of the white house to try to slow down what lawmakers are doing with respect to the impeachment inquiry because they believe that is helpful to them, although Court Decisions<\/a> like this certainly put into perspective the peril of fighting back. Now, again, could they appeal, we expect thats a possibility. But for the white house having this information shared, we dont know how consequential it will be now that the focus is on ukraine and everything related to the Mueller Investigation<\/a> is an earlier chapter. But expect there will be pushback from the white house because thats the playbook they use. Richard . And the playbook in this case when you look at it, paul butler, this is not a decision that was brief, shall we say. It was 70plus pages. From your perspective, how big a deal was judge howells statements and the homework she put into this. Its important for two reasons. First, congress will get to see information that bill barr said congress shouldnt see. So typically grand jury information is secret, Even Congress<\/a> cant look at it. An exception is when theres an impeachment. During the nixon impeachment hearings, a court ruled that congress could, under those circumstances, see information that previously is briktd federal law. And so, again, a lot of it depends on how much you have confidence in the attorney general. A lot of us think he acted more like trumps personal attorney than chief Law Enforcement<\/a> officer of the United States<\/a>. Now Congress Gets<\/a> to see everything that made a difference to the Mueller Investigation<\/a>. More importantly, richard, for the investigation for the ukrainian investigation, the judge said that this is the fact an impeachment inquiry. As you noticed, she wrote a long scholarly decision where she basically threw trumps defense that because they hadnt authorized an impeachment inquiry, she threw that out of the water. She said thats not only not required, its not supported in the constitution and its not supported by Previous Court<\/a> cases. So josh, i guess for those who might be watching on both sides of the aisle here, is what she wrote somewhat appealproof . Usually when a judge goes to that length in an opinion, theyre trying to lay out their reasoning in a way that would be at least easy for an Appeals Court<\/a> to understand and maybe harder to pick apart. She gave many different grounds for several of her views laid out in this opinion. What we have to keep in mind, kendis, is not just the possibility of an appeal but how many cases like this are backed up behind it. You have a lawsuit involving don mcgahn, former white House Counsel<\/a> fighting a subpoena he received. You have four lawsuits relating to the president s tax and financial records. When one judge comes out and says the impeachment is valid, the subpoenas are valid, you need to comply with what the house is doing, it can have sort of a Snowball Effect<\/a> in encouraging other judges to reach similar conclusions which could be problematic for the white house, even on the current ukraine investigation now we have a new suit filed yesterday by the former Deputy National<\/a> security adviser asking if his subpoena is valid. I think judge howells ruling could really make its way through all those different decisions. Leigh ann, are the democrats celebrating in a small way . This could be potentially a big decision for them. They absolutely are celebrating. Of course they know the reality that this will likely be appealed, but for the time being, theyre saying it gives not only democrats but theyre saying the house of representatives a big win here. It shows the Congressional Authority<\/a> and the power that they have in the celebration of branches here. And so theyre saying that this is a big win for them, for the people, and it really undercuts what the republicans and the white house have been saying, that this is a sham impeachment process. And the white house has been pointing to the fact that the house of representatives have not held a vote on the house floor to open an impeachment inquiry as our previous guest indicated. The judge said that is not necessary, so democrats are legitimately involved in this impeachment inquiry and theyre plowing on forward. Kelly, its exciting for all of you that work in the beltway this civics lesson were watching in front of us as was alluded by josh carlson cooperman here. What might happen here . Hes basically saying do i listen to the white house or the subpoena coming down from the inquiry . He is caught in a place that would be hard for anyone, especially a Public Servant<\/a> who wants to do the right thing to deal with. He believes that hes been ordered by the white house not to comply because he was a member of the executive branch. At the same time he says theres a competing and irreconcilable wish from the legislative branch that he would come forward and would provide testimony, and he is saying that when there is a clash between the branches, it is the judicial arm of our government that should in effect play referee. And so he is saying, according to his lawyer, that he has no particular opinion about whether he should or should not, but wants the court to decide. He is due to appear on monday, and so it will be interesting to see when we would hear any kind of a decision about that as leigh ann pointed out. Its now becoming a six or sevenday a week business in the impeachment inquiry in washington for all of the time concerns that democrats have. And so it will be interesting to see when we would learn about the fate of his testimony and if he would need to be rescheduled, if itll happen at all. But it could, of course, set the framework for how many highprofile and important witnesses could be treated. Bolton being one of those words out there, right, as we look forward in the discussion so far. Great to have you, kelly odonnell, White House Correspondent<\/a> for us. Please stick around. Well talk to you in a little bit. Coming up, as more bombshells continue to drop, Rudy Giuliani<\/a> is getting pressure as increasing scrutiny is aimed at him. The big question, might he be indicted . you look amazing. And you look amazingly comfortable. When your vneck looks more like a uneck. Thats when you know, its halfwashed. Try downy fabric conditioner. Unlike detergent alone, downy helps prevent stretching by conditioning and smoothing fibers, so clothes look newer, longer. Downy and its done. We know a thing or two because weve seen a thing or two. Even a ernie lost rubber duckie . burke you mean this one . ernie rubber duckie cookie what about a broken cookie jar . burke again, cookie . cookie yeah. Me bad. grover yoooooow oh what about monsters having accidents . I am okay by the way burke depends. Did you cause the accident, grover . grover cause an accident . Maybe. bert how do you know all this stuff . burke just comes with experience. all muppets yup. We are farmers. Bumpadum, bumbumbumbum. Welcome back. Rudy giuliani indicted, well, not at the moment. The president s lawyer, though, is under scrutiny after two of his associates were indicted this week over dealings linked to the ukraine scandal that triggered the impeachment inquiry. Now, theres speculation the former u. S. Attorney could face charges of his own for allegedly acting as an unregistered foreign agent. This comes amid reporting by cnn that giuliani is on the hunt for his own personal defense attorney now. Meanwhile the New York Times<\/a> reports the president and giuliani are moving forward with even more attacks on joe biden. This is over son hunters work for a romanian batman who faces corruption charges. The only problem is that Rudy Giuliani<\/a> also worked for that very same romanian businessman that was a couple years after hunter biden supposedly did. Then this new bit of information courtesy of a giuliani butt dial to an nbc news reporter. In that call hes heard on voicemail discussing his business dealings overseas and a big sum of cash. All right. Joining us now, as ash win sang and Josh Gerstein<\/a> and paul butler. What do you make of the call. Well start with that. Not a lot of details. We do hear big numbers. We hear turkey in there too. Well, when it comes to Rudy Giuliani<\/a>s foreign work, the story gets much broader and gets very international very quickly with a variety of countries. For instance, this was i think the term bahrain was mentioned on that same call that you just played a little bit of the audio from. As we reported at the daily beast earlier this year, Rudy Giuliani<\/a>, while he was still representing the president of the United States<\/a> as the Mueller Probe<\/a> was wrapping up, giuliani was in negotiations with the ministry of the interior of the kingdom of bahrain, a small island nation in the persian gulf, for his Security Company<\/a> to do police and Security Consulting<\/a> for the bahrainny security and police services. This is something that he ended up inking a deal for and was simultaneously doing that side gig while serving as personal attorney for president donald trump. Some may see that as a bit of a conflict or something giving the appearance of a conflict given that the government in bahrain wants a lot of things from the trump administration, including foreign aid and assistance. But because Rudy Giuliani<\/a> has never worked for donald trump in a capacity as, say, white House Counsel<\/a> or white house attorney, he doesnt have to abide by these rules, even if the appearance of. Where do you use solid line of scrimmage lines with what Rudy Giuliani<\/a> is doing as described to us . Rudy is steadilily hustling business hes the president s lawyer, private lawyer and fixer, and he uses that access to trump to try to get results for his client. The federal criminal law requires that if you lobby u. S. Officials on behalf of foreign nationals, you have to register. And if you dont rectangle, you have committed a felony. We know that giuliani hasnt registered, so the question is the kind of work that hes doing for his clients. If youre the prosecutors here, josh, and you were writing on this extensively on this very question, whats going to happen with Rudy Giuliani<\/a>, is he going to go to jail is what your headline was. If you get Rudy Giuliani<\/a>, do you get President Trump<\/a> . Well, hes tying himself closely to the president at the moment, and the president is returning the love. There was a tweet earlier this week where giuliani was mostly quiet, sort of uncharacteristically for him. And then we had the president come out and make another statement supporting rudy as a crime fighter and a guy whos fighting corruption around the world. So i think theres a mutual hug going on here between these two men, which side put the president in some jeopardy if prosecutors decided to come after rudy. That said, i think things like making a fortune agent case against somebody in court as a criminal matter has proven have have tricky for the Justice Department<\/a>. Ive sat through two trials related to that just in the last few months. And at the end of these cases the Justice Department<\/a> ended up with egg on its face basically because it turns out that kind of case is a lot harder to prove as a criminal matter than sending somebody a letter and saying maybe you should be registered, would you mind filling out this paperwork. Is this question of how the at the moment the attorney general and the department of justice might be looking at Rudy Giuliani<\/a>, now looking into a criminal investigation, which means many more powers and complaints coming from the attorney general around the legal question of Rudy Giuliani<\/a>. Sure. Its too early to say one way or the other if Rudy Giuliani<\/a> actually will get indicted or spend any time in prison. Its obviously way too early to get to that. We have to see where this whole saga evolves to. If he ends up in even similar legal jeopardy or legally muddy waters as those two associates, fruman and parnas, again, way too early to tell. This wouldnt be the first time in recent memory that a person who likes going on tv and likes ostentatiously being public about his fervent support for donald trump were indicted. This obviously happened with Michael Cohen<\/a>, with the whole campaign financerelated violations that eventually sent Michael Cohen<\/a>, formerly a longtime trump loyalist to prison. He ended up turning on the president in a very dramatic, very public fashion, and Michael Cohen<\/a> and Rudy Giuliani<\/a> ended up becoming very public enemies and trading words with each other as that whole legal saga went on. So its a bit of a i dont even know if the term is shakespeareian here. Maybe more soap opera, that giuliani is the one in the hot seat and the one who has the feds bearing down on him in one way or the other. Put it all together. What do you make of the recent reporting around the doj moving the criminal investigation potentially looking at Rudy Giuliani<\/a>. Is this protective in some way . If you were to think of the attorney general not necessarily taking on his legal ah hat but his political hat instead . Im not sure about that. If you think you fu look at the charges against the two giuliani associates, its clear part of what theyre being charged for is their effort to influence u. S. Politics related to ukraine, which is also something that Rudy Giuliani<\/a> was doing at the same time. And i was at the arraignment for those two fellows in new york earlier this week. One of the defense lawyers said, look, this is a very complicated case and one of the reasons its so complicated is at least with respect to mr. Parnas whos one of the associates of giuliani, he says giuliani was working for him and that he was working for giuliani and also he was working for giuliani as giuliani was working for the president of the United States<\/a>. And all those issues are implicated and all the records might be evidence at this criminal trial. Thats the kind of sort of complex situation. Some might call it almost a nightmare for a prosecutor to wade through all that information and deal with the crosscurrents in terms of people who might have interest in that case. A very large white board would be required for all of this. Josh gerstein, thank you. Senior Legal Affairs<\/a> writer for politico, appreciate your time. Paul butler, please stay with us. Well talk to you in just a little bit. Coming up, Big Questions<\/a> surrounding potential testimony from former john bolton aide Charles Kupperman<\/a>. Why hes asking a judge whether or not he can be forced to testify in the impeachment inquiry. 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Happening right now a federal court is deciding whether or not the next witnesses in the impeachment inquiry investigation must testify. Former Deputy National<\/a> security adviser Charles Kupperman<\/a> filed a lawsuit asking a federal judge to determine whether he is required to speak to congress. He is scheduled to kick of a big week at the house of representatives with four witnesses expected to appear, including two members of the National Security<\/a> council and the acting assistant secretary of defense. But now there are questions on whether they will show up. A source tells nbc news that lawyers for john bolton, the former National Security<\/a> adviser are discussing the possibility of bolton testifying in the impeachment probe. Joining us now, daily beast white house reporter, leigh ann caldwell, paul butler back with us as well. Ash win, what do we know about john bolton at the moment . Well, theres still reportedly some back and forth between his legal team and whats going to happen with the committees on capitol hill who have been looking into impeachment right now. We dont know if were going to get a deposition from john bolton or anything like that yet but what we do know is he left the administration earlier this year. He used to trumps National Security<\/a> adviser on extremely bad terms. The day he left, there was sort of a back and forth battle playing out hilariously in public on twitter, President Trump<\/a>s Favorite Forum<\/a> apparently, about whether john bolton was fired or whether he quit. Bolton insisting he quit and resigned the administration because of deep divides on National Security<\/a> and Foreign Policy<\/a> issues that he had with his former boss, donald j. Trump. John bolton, of course, a noted war hawk dating back to the george w. Bush era if not before, was someone who wanted to do a lot more interventions overseas than President Trump<\/a> did. As we reported at the daily beast earlier this year, within six days, not even a whole week of him leaving or being kicked out of Donald Trumps<\/a> white house, he was already talking to various literary agents about writing a book and donald trump uses a book to settle scores. So beyond whatever happens with bolton on capitol hill in the coming days or weeks with regards to the democrats impeachment inquiry, you can bet that in the coming months and years hell be trying to settle scores with his former boss, President Trump<\/a>. He has a long memory. In my haste, ned price is also with us, msnbc National Security<\/a> in School Analyst<\/a> and former special assistant to president obama. I was reading through telepromter there. What do you make if we see bolton here . Right. And i think thats a big if. John bolton has sent a signal that he has a story to tell, but so far he seems to be saying i only want to tell that story if i can monetize it as asawin was discussing. He is lease eager to go forward publicly and certainly doesnt seem to be all that eager to go before congress. But i think the fact is we have to remember that john bolton was the National Security<\/a> adviser during almost the entire period in question. The aid to ukraine was released the next day, september 11th of this year, and the whistleblower complaint came out the following day. All that to say john bolton had a front row seat to all of this. He was National Security<\/a> adviser on july 25th, 2019, when President Trump<\/a> spoke to his ukrainian counterpart. And we know from witness testimony before congress that john bolton was certainly not one of the did not appear to be one of the conspirators in this scheme. In fact, he called this a drug deal. He said giuliani was a hand grenade waiting to explode. So certainly it seems like he would be able to Tell Congress<\/a> about his reservations, and some of the wrongdoing and perhaps even worse, perhaps even criminality that he witnessed during his time in the front row of this administrations Foreign Policy<\/a>. We move to who might be to who is. Were in hour six. Have we heard anything in terms of what may be happening there inside the skiff . So what we know is that fellowsh philip reeker is talking about the firing of marie yovanovitch, the former ambassador to ukraine who was much loved and respected by her colleagues. She did a fantastic job. We have since learned from previous depositions that her firing was recommended by Rudy Giuliani<\/a>, trumps personal attorney, to the president , and the president took giuliani up on that advice and fired yovanovitch. We also just heard congressman mark meadows was talking with reporters a couple moments ago and that yovanovitch or philip reeker also did talk about the trio, the three amigos who came in to run ukraine policy after yovanovitch was fired. That was Eu Ambassador<\/a> sondland, that was special envoy volker and Energy Secretary<\/a> rick perry. Weve heard these names over and over again. Apparently he had a lot of information about that as well. Now, congressman meadows, a republican whos defending the president , hes saying there was no new revelation that philip reeker has exposed and its the same thing weve been hearing over and over again. Were hearing that from democratic members of congress as well as saying theyre saying that what reeker is doing is hes corroborating what other witnesses have already said about this time line and the series of events that led the United States<\/a> to push and to pressure the ukrainians to investigate the president s political rivals, the bidens. We have to remember that, thats the big picture while were hearing these details from these witnesses all leading up to this larger story of if the president abused his power. Paul butler, at this time a week ago we had just experienced what some were saying was the the biggest week in with the inquiry so far. This last week, how would you characterize it . I think ambassador taylors testimony was a game changer. There doesnt have to be a quid pro quo for impeachment. But if there is a quid pro quo, it makes what the president doing is even sleazier, looks like a shakedown. What ambassador taylor testified in no Uncertain Terms<\/a> trump put both a meeting at the white house for the ukrainian president and military aid that this very vulnerable country subject to russian aggression needed, when trump bartered american political im sorry, American Public<\/a> money, taxpayer dollars for that, thats extremely incriminating. And so it goes to the classic idea of high crimes and misdemeanors which the the framers didnt mean to be statutory crime but abuse of the public trust. Thats what ambassador taylor testified to. Again, i think its very damaging to the president. Like you, ned, ambassador taylor, an admirable Public Servant<\/a> here. Would you call his system the biggest in this past week . What stood out to you . I dont think ambassador taylors testimony really changed the contours of this scandal as we know it. President trump, according to his testimony and testimony before it and presumably according to testimony that is to come, betrayed his oath of office, betrayed the American People<\/a>, and betrayed our National Security<\/a> by putting his own narrow domestic political interests ahead of the national interest. What ambassador taylor did is that he really underlined and underscored for us the scale and scope of this as well as laid this directly on President Trump<\/a>s feet. By that i mean that we learn from ambassador taylors prepared statement, it was actually President Trump<\/a>s instruction to the u. S. Ambassador to the eu that he approached the ukrainians. The ukrainian president zelensky, and made it clear, leave no doubt that there was, in fact, a quid pro quo here, that there would be a stalemate between the release of these funds and what the ukrainians wanted, and that was the release of these funds and a white house meeting. If they didnt commit to these political investigations that President Trump<\/a> wanted. So i think he needed much more granular. He provided more detail and made it much more damning for President Trump<\/a> himself. Thank you so much. Leigh ann caldwell, paul butler, ned price, and asawin, thank you so much. Coming up for you, well turn our attention to the 2020 race and a big gathering happening right now in South Carolina<\/a>. The 2020 candidates are out in full force at the criminal Justice Forum<\/a> in columbia. We got their messages to voters and why President Trump<\/a>s speech there yesterday caused some controversy. To walk along the lonely street of dreams here i go again on my you realize your vows are a whitesnake song . I do. If you ride, you get it. Geico motorcycle. 15 minutes could save you 15 or more. Tailored recommendations, taxefficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. Fidelity wealth management. 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Is bone and muscle ache. Ask your doctor. About neulasta onpro. Pay no more than 5 per dose with copay card. I dont have to worry about that, do i . Harmful bacteria lurk just below the gum line. Crest gum detoxify, voted product of the year. It works below the gum line to neutralize harmful plaque bacteria and help reverse early gum damage. Gum detoxify, from crest. 100 days, thats how close we are from the beginning of primary elections and caucuses. That starts in iowa. But today many of the candidates are in the palmetto state, thats South Carolina<\/a>. Theyre attending a criminal Justice Forum<\/a> laying out their ideas on how to tackle the issue. Their messages come a day after President Trump<\/a> spoke at the same event which has taken place at a historically black college. Since we passed this landmark legislation, ten states have followed our lead and passed legislation that takes critical steps to advance criminal Justice Reform<\/a> at the state level. While there, the president received an award for that effort, triggering a twitter feud with president ial candidate and senator Kamala Harris<\/a>. At one point she announced she would boycott that event, but has since reversed her decision of he talked about it in the previous hour here on msnbc. I received an invitation from the mayor of columbia along with the president of the university to participate today because today is the University Hosting<\/a> it. As a graduate of an hbcu, i felt it very important that on an issue like that the students be allowed to attend. Mike memoli, aj elrod, gideon resnick, and Asawin Suebsaeng<\/a> back with us again. Mike, how was it . What was the outcome of the gathering . If you could summarize for us here. Well, richard, whats so interesting about this forum is that criminal Justice Reform<\/a> is one of those issues where theres not just a broad consensus among the Democratic Candidates<\/a> but also a bipartisan consensus. As you mentioned thats why President Trump<\/a> was speaking at the same event as the number of the democratic president ial contenders. The candidates had an opportunity to talk about ways they want to build on that, thats the Bipartisan Legislation<\/a> that President Trump<\/a> signed last year. For john delaney it was talking about the need to investigate in public defenders to help those facing trial. For Kamala Harris<\/a> it was her bipartisan bill with senator rand paul to end the cash bail system. And so we heard a number of proposals like that. Pete buttigieg unveiling his comprehensive criminal Justice Reform<\/a> plan with a focus on Incentivizing States<\/a> to reduce the number of juveniles in detention. There was a controversy involving senator harris where she had initially threatened to boycott this event. Its been interesting to see how some of the candidates used President Trump<\/a>s presence here yesterday to make a different message for their campaign. Cory booker chose a different tact than senator harris. Rather than threatening to boycott the event, he began by trying to highlight the differences between his long record on the issues of criminal Justice Reform<\/a>, fighting on behalf of the disenfranchised with what he said was President Trump<\/a>s mixed record, lets say. Yes, he partnered with him on the first step act, but there was a much longer track record in which he believes President Trump<\/a> obviously has let down those who are seeking justice in this system. Adrian, this is not the first stop for these candidates and they come back. There have been several fanatics. I remember one of the gatherings earlier in the months was focused on economic empowerment, issues of the back pocket of your wallet, right . Uhhuh. Yeah, absolutely. This is a very important state for president ial candidates, and i want to applaud Kamala Harris<\/a> for what she did today. I think she made right decides. Not only did she protest donald trump who uses racism to divide this country, she protested him getting an award, but she also protested the fact that students werent allowed to participant in this process, werent allowed to be in the room. It was a smart tactic for her. The africanamerican vote is going to make or break the democratic primary. Whoever gets the most support among africanamericans will be the Democratic Party<\/a> nominee. All these events are very important, especially at hbcus around the country, very important to decide who will be the nominee in the dpaemd. Gideon resnick, were waiting to hear from the former Vice President<\/a>. Theoretically this would be a group thats friendly to him. What do you think he needs to say . And then well get to mike. I think the former Vice President<\/a> needs to sort of continue on this track where he is kind of evolved on criminal justice in a number of ways since his long legislative history in the senate. One of the things he has emphasized is his work with president obama during those years, class crucial pitch hes used throughout this primary. But he also has newly evolved criminal justice issues. Hes been highlighting those to various communities with whom hes spoken. Like the other candidates that have been at this forum thus far, the presence of trump is going to allow biden to draw a good contrast. Thats the blessing in disguise of the fact that trump had actually been there on the first day of it, is that everybody who gets to step up and make their pitch is getting that direct contrast now too. What were seeing is a cross of whats happening in the beltway and the election at the same time. Before toying mike to finish here, i want to ask you, asawin, the thing thats going to happen is many candidates, if theres going to be any sort of vote, trial, that this is going to pull mcht candidates who are in the senate right now away from the campaign trail who are there in South Carolina<\/a> today. Absolutely. And while i think most of them would prefer to be on the campaign trail talking about pocketbook issues or health care, immigration, policy issues, just grappling with impeachment on capitol hill is not the killer in terms of National Polling<\/a> or even state by state polling that has been for democrats in the past. So i dont think theyll be nearly handling with kids gloves as they would have even just a few months ago, of course. That goes without saying. But one thing i wanted to say about President Trump<\/a>s side of this, especially given his remarks yesterday, is that going into this what may be a tough reelection year for him, he is going to say over and over and over again how much a great criminal Justice Reform<\/a>er and warrior hes been on this issue. Yes, he did sign the first step act, but its very important to put his record on raise and also criminal justice in context. Yes, he signed the bill, but initially he also underfunded it by roughly 80 . Under Jeff Sessions<\/a> the former attorney general, trump and the department of justice were accomplice in the reversal of numerous obamaera steps on criminal justice, whether that was on equitable sharing or civil Asset Forfeiture<\/a> or local policing and doj investigations into them. I could go on and on and on. But its important not to let trump get away with it they dont want to say talk about how great he is on criminal justice. Its just not the case. 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While we stowin and goin but thats cool, i know for a fact your suv does not suck. And why is that . It aint got that vacuum in the back, whoo sucking stuff up what else are we gonna find . We got to go. Vacuum in the back, hallelujah get 0 financing for 60 months plus 2,250 total bonus cash on the 2019 chrysler pacifica. With the federal control substance act, marijuana is a schedule 1 drug alongside of heroin. All right . Now, people can argue about marijuana and people have different opinions about it. I got it. But no one, i think, in their right mind can equate marijuana with a killer drug like heroin. There in South Carolina<\/a> for an important gathering. Our panel joins us again. Mike memoli is on the ground right now. One poll from monmouth puts joe biden on top, not necessarily a surprise here. Yeah, thats right, richard. Actually weve seen obviously conflicting polls since the last debate. But actually, i want to bring in senator klobuchar. She just got off stage at the forum. She joins us live now. Senator klobuchar, there was some controversy over this forum and given President Trump<\/a>s participation yesterday. Why was it important for you to attend . I think everyone ended up attending. For me, this is a major issue. Im a former prosecutor, but i was a sponsor of the first step act. I think we need to make some major changes to our federal sentencing. We got a first step, but theres more we have to do including expanding drug courts and doing more about mental health. And i came out with a proposal on that. So i think we ended up having a really good discussion. I was fortunate to have a brandnew prosecutor from st. Louis interview me, and it went really well. As you know, theres so few Bipartisan Legislation<\/a> coming out of congress. Was it a mistake, though, to honor the president as one of the sponsors of this organization yesterday . I dont think that right now i feel like giving a prize or an award to donald trump. But im going to put this behind me because i think what was more important at this Amazing School<\/a> with these great students that i got to meet was to have all these candidates come here today. And i think there will be more tomorrow and hear about the work we want to do as president. Thats what this was about for me. You served on the Senate Judiciary<\/a> committee. Some Significant Developments<\/a> in the impeachment inquiry, a federal judge ruling that the house committees are entitled to grand jury material. What is the significance of that potentially to impeachment Going Forward<\/a> . Well, i think well have to see what that material is. But it just shows that the judiciary, whether theyre democratic or republicanappointed judges know they have to do their job and follow the law. I wish the Supreme Court<\/a> will get the same message. No one is above the law and that right now i was appalled by the stunt the republicans played over in the house. Ive been in that skiff many times. Thats a secure area, and you can never bring your phones in. They take they can away and they take your fit bits away. And to have those guys barge in with their cell phones to make a point when the republicans were already in there asking questions. It was even steven, democrats and republicans could ask questions of the witnesses, and i think they were creating subterfuge because of the testimony of ambassador taylor, who had been so devastating to the administration. Just a few seconds left. So much unprecedented about these tiechltz if there was a trial in the senate, would you be likely to spend your full time in the senate or in iowa if its just before the caucus. I have made this clear. We have a constitutional obligation. This is a very serious matter, something that goes back to the Founding Fathers<\/a> when James Madison<\/a> said it at the Constitutional Convention<\/a> that he feared a president could betray the trust of the American People<\/a> for a foreign power. That is our job, and i have the most endorsements of anyone in iowa of electives and former electives. Ill have plenty of surrogates if that happens right before the caucuses. Were really excited about our momentum and the contributions that came in at amyklobuchar. Com. We raised over 2 million in six days after the debate and we are on the rise. Thank you so much for joining us, senator. Mike memoli, thank you so much, sir. Mike memoli there in South Carolina<\/a>. I owe you one, adrian, and you one, gideon, and you, asawin, as well. Were going to take a short break. Be right back. Just one pill a day. 24 hours. Zero heartburn. Because life starts when heartburn stops. Take the challenge at prilosecotc dot com. The Doctors Office<\/a> might mejust for a shot. O but why go back there when you can stay home with neulasta\u00ae onpro . Strong chemo can put you at risk of serious infection. In a key study neulasta\u00ae reduced the risk of infection from 17 to 1 a 94 decrease. Neulasta\u00ae onpro is designed to deliver neulasta\u00ae the day after chemo and is used by most patients today. Neulasta\u00ae is for certain Cancer Patients<\/a> receiving strong chemotherapy. Do not take neulasta\u00ae if youre allergic to it or Neupogen Filgrastim<\/a> . An incomplete dose could increase infection risk. Ruptured spleen, sometimes fatal as well as serious lung problems allergic reactions, kidney injuries and capillary leak syndrome have occurred. Report abdominal or shoulder tip pain, trouble breathing or allergic reactions to your doctor right away. In patients with sickle cell disorders, serious, sometimes fatal crises can occur. The most common side effect is bone and muscle ache. If youd rather be home ask your doctor about neulasta\u00ae onpro. Pay no more than 5 per dose with copay card. That wraps it up for me this hour. Im richard lui. I turn i had over now to reverend al sharpton and politicsnation. Good evening and welcome to politicsnation","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia601004.us.archive.org\/8\/items\/MSNBCW_20191026_200000_MSNBC_Live_With_Richard_Lui\/MSNBCW_20191026_200000_MSNBC_Live_With_Richard_Lui.thumbs\/MSNBCW_20191026_200000_MSNBC_Live_With_Richard_Lui_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240617T12:35:10+00:00"}