What were hitting at. In this case were the pinata. It feels like we are not in control of our destiny because we dont know what options are available to us. I dont know about you. But a few minutes after i fin h finished my first read of the op ed piece, i had my guess about who the author was. I spent some time working on it. I am now prepared to label it an educated guess. Really . Based based on my own years working in washington and observations made at the time and a close study of the text. And im going to reveal all that later in the show. I know you dont want to miss it. So im going to give you some time to get home. Okay . And get your slippers on. You know, nobody could hear us right now. You could just whisper it to me. It is a note right here. Drop by the desk on your way out. The name is right there. That little rustling noise in the corner of your set will be me. Its someone you have heard of. Well done. Thats where were going to leave it until you get home and get the slippers on. When you text me and say youre at home and youre ready, bang, thats when were going to do it. Thank you, rachel. Nbc news is reporting tonight that the president s anger is volcanic. Washington post is using the same word to describe the president s anger and the Washington Post says that the president is, quote, absolutely livid over what he considered a treasonous act of disloyal tichlt mety. The title i am part in the resistance inside the Trump Administration. The president suspects that the Administration Official who wrote the piece, quote, works on National Security issues or in the justice department, according to two people familiar with his private discussions. On that point of suspicious, i actually agree with the president. I agree with that suspicion, and i will offer my guess later in this hour. We will open it up for that later in the hour. A striking thing about the Trump White House reaction to the op ed piece is the full acceptance of the idea that someone inside the Trump Administration really is the author of the piece. There is no reason to doubt that, of course, because the New York Times would never falsely describe the author of this piece who they simply identify as a senior official in the Trump Administration whose identity is known to us and whose job would be jeopardized by its disclosure. And one strategy for donald trump could have been to insist that the article is completely fake, that it doesnt come from anyone inside the white house. The closest he has come to saying that in misvolcanic reaction on twitter and elsewhere is to just weakly put it as a question, saying, does the socalled senior Administration Official really exist, or is it just the failing New York Times with another phony source . In that same tweet, the president then believing that the source does exist insists that the New York Times should turn that person over to the government for National Security purposes. The op ed piece comes a day after excerpts from Bob Woodwards new book fear. The op ed says many senior officials are working diligently from within to frustrate parts of his agenda and his worst inclinations. I would know. I am one of them. The root of the problem is the president s amorality. The president s leadership still, with a adversarial, petty and ineffective. Senior officials will privately admit their daily disbelief at the commander in chiefs comments and actions. Most are working to insulate their operations from his whims. It may be cold comfort in this chaotic era, but americans should know there are adults in the room. We fully recognize what is happening, and we are trying to do whats right even when donald trump wont. And in what is the single most dramatic revelation, the author says, given tin stability many witnessed, there were early whispers within the cabinet of invoking the 25th amendment, which would start a complex process for removing the president. But no one wanted to precipitate a constitutional crisis. So we will do what we can to steer the administration in the right direction until, one way or another, its over. Given the instability that i witnessed, there were early comments on this program at this hour about the 25th amendment. I believe this was the first place where the 25th amendment was discussed after donald trump was inaugurated. Exactly one month into the Trump Presidency perhaps with some members of the trump cabinet watching i described how the 25th amendment can be used to remove the president and make the Vice President what the 25th amendment call it is acting president. Under the 25th amendment, the Vice President and the majority of the cabinet can decide to invoke the 25th amendment. That is entirely up to the Vice President and a majority of the cabinet. They dont need donald trump to become medically unable to do the job. They dont need a written opinion from a psychiatrist that donald trump is insane. If the president objects to such an action taken by the Vice President and the majority of the cabinet, then the amendment provides that, quote, Congress Shall decide the issue. And that will be determined by a twothirds vote of both houses of congress. When those votes are counted, mike pence could become acting president. Using the 25th amendment is not, in fact, a complex process, as the op ed described it today. But that section could simply mean that the members of the cabinet who were whispering about invoking the 25th amendment early on realized that they probably could not win that twothirds vote in the house and the senate after donald trump would object to their use of the 25th amendment. And thats why they decided not to try it. Todays op ed piece is the first recorded instance in the history of the 25th amendment of that amendment being discussed in a white house where the president is physically healthy and fully conscious. The cabinet was whispering about the 25th amendment early on because of Donald Trumps amorality. And so according to todays New York Times op ed piece, as the resistance was marching in the streets against the president of the United States, some sleeper cells of the resistance were beginning to take up positions inside the Trump Administration. And tonight the president of the United States will try to go to sleep without knowing who those members of the resistance are in his own white house and in his own administration. And so Donald Trumps circle of trust has reportedly been reduced to a point that seemed easily predictable at the outset. The Washington Post is reporting tonight trump already felt that he had a dwindling circle of people who he could trust. He fretted after wednesdays op ed that he could only trust his children. Leading off our discussion now, an msnbc National Security analyst and former chief of staff at the cia and the former chief of staff to joe biden and al gore. And former undersecretary of astate and an msnbc Global Affairs chairman, author of the new book not for the faint of heart. And wendy sherman, donald trump needs a lesson in what your book teaches, but he seems completely oblivious to everything that all of you on this first panel know about government and how it works and it is the reason you are all here, is because this is a story about the internal workings of the white house. You have all been here and we all know and the world knows we have never seen anything like what we saw in the New York Times today. And i just want to get your reaction to any part of that op ed piece as you have read it. There has been a lot of discussion about the process, who it is, which you will get to later this evening. Why he did it. Why he didnt have the courage that john mccains funeral spoke to us about. But the real point here is the president s behavior. And i said, actually on morning joe yesterday that sadly i think he is unfit. And he should step aside. And it make take a 25th amendment to get him to step aside. But will get him to step aside is novembers election. I dont think we will have a twothirds majority in the house or senate, republican controlled. They are all too worried about their own hineys. It will take an election to say the times have changed. We saw that in massachusetts this week and it is time for the kind of urge and use of power that will protect the United States of america. Ron, i know you have an educated guess about this, too, and we are going to get to that later in the hour. But i want to get your reaction to what was your Immediate Reaction other than who the author was when you read this today . I think it speaks to a constitutional crisis and a corruption crisis. We have a president who members of his own team believe is unfit to be president. Thats a constitutional crisis. There is a corruption crisis here, too, because the author of this piece says, hey, we left him in place because we like tax cut, military spending and deregulation. If the Republican Party is complicit in an amoral and unfit president because they are getting goodies for their donors, that is just corruption. And there is a chaos crisis. You have people in the president S Administration running around undoing his decisions, not following his orders, ignoring what he says. Thats kay yac chaotic. Donald trump tweeted treason. The answer is no. We have not had a treason case in america since world war ii because, as ive said before in this program, the United StatesSupreme Court has interpreted the constitutions reference to treason as being as requiring a declaration of war and requiring cooperation with the country who is who we have declared war with in order to get to the standard of treason. And thats why we have not had a treason case since our last declaration of war, which is world war ii. Pardon that longer parentheses than i intended but sometimes the president is watching and he might learn something. Where do you see this going . What happens tomorrow in the Trump Administration . I think in some ways this anonymous piece may give rise to other pieces to come out, to speak out and to say, yes, indeed. We have a twotrack presidency. I think this is mostly relevant in the area of National Security, which is where i suspect this person works. But also it is the focus of the piece. The twotrack presidency where in essence we have Foreign Policy decisionmaking thats been carried out by the career staff, the professionals as well as the senior appointees who know how to manage Foreign Policy issues. They are trying to keep things on an even keel, trying to work with allies and be tough on adversaries. Then the president is going off in a completely different direction. I think it is one thing if it happened in invested policy. Wendy sherman, this op ed piece creates either more confusion in the world or perhaps more clarity in the world because our partners in the world, our adversaries in the world, other countries have been wondering how you deal with this Trump White House and how you deal with donald trump. This op ed piece is saying you have to find the real person. If you really want to deal with the Trump Administration on x, whatever that is, find the real person who is in control of that because its not the president. Its the person who controls the paper involving x, and that person might or might not put that piece of paper or remove that piece of paper from the president s desk. So dealing with this presidency, it seems, becomes probably even more complex for foreign countries. I think a lot of National Security leaders around the world have gone and found those people that they can relate to and talk to, but in the end it doesnt matter because the keeps pulling the rug out from the people who are doing the work. Hell say, ill meet with the president any time, any place without conditions and then we have secretary mike pompeo coming forward and saying, no, not really. We want these conditions and these conditions and these conditions. At the end of the day, no one can be sure who is trying to keep our state, our country safe and protected on the right course. Theyre never sure whether the rug is going to be pulled out from under them. In the past, great patriots have left our government over issues of morality. They were Foreign Service officers. They could not stay. And i have said to many Foreign Service officers. Im sure jeremy and ron are saying, stay up until the point where it is ethically and morally not possible for you to do so. And then have the courage to speak out and speak your convictions. I wish this person had not spoken anonymously. Perhaps there is reason why the person did what they did. But what really matters here is changing the president of the United States, changing our politics, finding the courage, the persistence to get the job done for us. And when we think of the principles resignations, the threshold has been so much lower in the past, there was actually one that i can think of in the clinton administration, which was an assistant secretary in health and Human Services about welfare policy because bill clinton compromised too much with the republicans and he in principal resigned over that. I want to read you something that bob corker said today because it is shocking and completely obvious and was somewhere in the back of your head and in your set of assumptions already. Bob corker having read the New York Times op ed piece said i didnt think that anything was relayed in that op ed that was new. I mean, i think this is what all of us have understood to be the situation from day one. And so again it is not very it didnt reveal much to me. I understand this is the case. Yeah. And it points to another group that is responsible for the situation this op ed lays out. Thats the Republican Leadership in congress, which has failed to do their job of holding the president accountable. Even the ones that tweet and sometimes speak against him on capitol hill, you know, issue these mild rebukes rhetorically and then go and vote with the president up and down the line. As you mentioned at the outset, someone who wanted to invoke the 25th amendment would have to believe they had twothirds of the congress behind them for it to stick. With these republicans on capitol hill bowing to President Trump, thats what empowers the situation we face as a country right now. And jeremy bash, we dont know what twothirds of either body is going to look like after this upcoming election. But here you have as much chaos as we have ever seen in the Trump White House as donald trump has been attempting to lead the republicans in their reelection campaigns. Thats right, lawrence. I think the unavailability of the 25th amendment is because, first, you have to have the Vice President on board. Second you have to have the majority of the cabinet and third you have to have twothirds of both chambers. What is a professional working on National Security or Security Matters to do. They will put their head down, do their job and not do what the president says and carry out this quiet resistance. I just want to say, i dont think it is mysterious. It is not deep state or improper. I think it is patriotic, the right thing to do. It is what many of our neighbors, colleagues, friends here in washington are sadly doing each and every day. All right. Were now going to be joined in our conversation by the democrat ek congressman who tweeted there is so much wrong about whats described in the New York Times op ed about donald trump. But blame falls squarely at the feet of the gop. Congresss absolute failure to check the president. They wont check him. So cowardly aids wont speak up publically and have gone reogue. You have made a point now that ron brought us to here, but you are making it today that this should be looked at in terms of the fuller and wider support system that donald trump has in washington that really resides in congress. Good evening, lawrence. Thats absolutely right. This is directly the result of a Republican Congress that has been unwilling to do its job and to check the president. And they do that because they would rather get the tax cuts for the wealthiest and Gut Health Care protections. They figure hes worth the trouble. Look what it has caused. It caused aids in the white house to go rogue. I dont see these aids as patriotic. I see them as covering up very disturbing conduct. And the best thing they could do is to bring that conduct to light publically, name themselves, resign and allow democracy to do its job. If they do this and toil away in the dorark, we dont truly know. It allows congress to get off the hook. We began the day without this op ed piece, without this voice from inside the