Thats the combining of the denial with the collusion is not a crime narrative. The president was focusing on just the straight up no collusion point. You see it in all the tweets. Now it is roaring back because of the thursday Night Bombshell that the president s own former lawyer and fixer cohen is claiming despite all the denials, the president did know about the russia Trump Tower Meeting in advance. When that report drop, you know what happens next, they picked it up and whipped it around and began running with it again. Its hard to see the point of all of this hysteria. What would the crime be . It is not illegal to talk to foreigners. Nobody is claiming that any information changed hands. Even if did it, so what . I dont think it is bad if campaigns are turning to foreign governments for dirt. Its not collusion. It is not something thats impeachable. As they today . Hacking. Donald trump famously doesnt pay his own contractors and his own long time lawyers . Even if his opponents were accusing him of anything, it wouldnt be of paying Vladimir Putin for the hack. But big picture, we are as all of this voluminous record shows, a long way from any climbed of straight denial and were getting closer to people who work for the president right now saying that even an alleged knowing Election Congress spearcy quid pro quo ought to be legal. Mueller is probing how trump used the july 26, 2016 speech that we all remember to weirdly address russia in the second person on the veryville activity that has now been indicted for saying, russia, if youre listening, i hope youre able to find the 30,000 emails are missing. We know this time line. It was from the first time they attempted on spear fish accounts used by clintons personal office. Is that just history . Odd sniming did mueller just indict and now getting toward wrap things up . To be fair, we dont know. We havent said. What were seeing amidst this collusion is not a Crime Hysteria is the people closest to this, people like Rudolph Giuliani and the president himself, theyre not acting like mueller is wrapping this up. Theyre acting like something is about to get much hotter and like it is somehow for some reason important to them to get at least their supporters, at least some people in this nation tonight torsion believe that crimes are not crimes. I turn now to a former federal prosecutor, a u. S. Attorney in the district of new york. Thanks for being here tonight. Thanks for having me. Collusion is not a word that figures important sbli the federal statutes. But the reference to a Reference Conspiracy is the type of crime that is in the statutes. Walk us through what to make of this defense. If you were to sit on Television Every Night and every time you talk about this investigation, you would have to say, lets talk about the investigation into a conspiracy to defraud the United States from impeding the proper functions of the government, people would turn the channel off. Collusion is just shorthand for potentially several crimes that are in the federal coat. And so this shift in strategy when Rudolph Giuliani unquestionably knows that, means to me there is Something Else up. It is just too simplistic and too incorrect even for someone
like Rudolph Giuliani who mass made a number of misleading and incorrect statements over the past couple months, even for him, it is a clear change in strategy. What does it suggest that hes worried about . You mentioned the cohen piece. Follow me here for a second. Giuliani introduced the notion of this preceding meeting to that june 9 meeting. That was not out there before. Today on one of his many interviews, he said that one of the people at that meeting was rick gates. Rick gates is the star cooperating witness in the Paul Manafort trial set to begin tomorrow. And before a trial, the government has to provide every prior statement of any of their witnesses. So now manaforts attorneys have rick gates prior statements, all of his interview with mueller and the team. What sticks out to me is that
gates was at that meeting and it would not surprise me, this is pure conjecture and there may be limitations on Whether Manaforts lawyers can disclose this. But it wouldnt surprise me at all if Rudolph Giuliani learned from manaforts lawyers a little bit about what rick gates is going to say about collusion. And theyre now trying to get out in front of this by not denying there is collusion but by saying it is not a crime. That is a fascinating theory that would plane is the chain of potential information. Given what he is charged with, why would the Trump Tower Meeting come up at all . It will likely not come up at the trial. Because of the federal statutes that require the government to disclose all of his prior statements, they can know used on crossexamination to impeach him, manaforts lawyers will have known about it. So dont expect i in the trial
thats coming but in potential back channels, giuliani could learn, and he was not able to speak to rick gates. When he says, ive spoken to everybody at those meetings, it is not true that giuliani at least has spoken to rick gates, since gates cooperated. And youre referring to how, well, lets talk about a pre meeting which could make them look bad if they were all geared up and prepping for getting bad stuff on clinton and the russians. What is he doing . Covering his tracks. I think he spoke too much. I think he realized this is first time anyone had heard of this pre meeting and everyone is focused on it now. For him to say there was a pre meeting but the president was not there and didnt know about it. Thou dost protest too much. Of course he didnt speak to putin on the phone and say can you interfere on my behalf. And there is no fundamental understanding of a conspiracy which does not require direct contact. You can build evidence through all sorts of direct or circumstantial evidence. Right and giuliani knows even accepting a thing of value is illegal. It doesnt require the actual transaction. Thank you for being here tonight. Thank you for having me. We appreciate it. I want to turn to another guest of ours who has been all over this probe from the start. Thank you for being here. Where do you come down on rudy, secret genius or bumbling incompetent spokesperson or bumbling incompetent spokesperson that is hiding a
genius . Well, i think it is really, really difficult to be a lawyer for a client who is notoriously unreliable. It seems like Rudolph Giuliani does not know the facts in any given situation. His own client is not being completely honest with him. Donald trump has changed his story on so many things related to the russian interference and his own role in them that it is really hard even for giuliani to keep up with it. So it seems like hes just making up his own facts as he goes along, as evidenced today when he gave two separate accounts of what actually happened in that meeting on june 9. He claimed there was a pre meeting, meeting on june 7 that rick gates and Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort attended. And then claimed that meeting never happened and he said it was leaked but it hadnt yet been made public. So it is a lot of whip lash and
it seems like giuliani is trying to muddy the waters and confuse as much as possible because thats their only strategy at this point. To make people really, really confused about what actually happens so they can look at the next sheeny thing and move on. And we havent reached his other defense that is remarkable and looks like bad news for people who are not at the highest levels of the white house. I guess we could call at this time vip defense. The back of the club where you have the special vip section. He basically says, and im quoting, when i say no collusion between the Trump Campaign and russia, im only speaking about the top four or five people in the campaign. Which appears to be him narrowing the circle of, he is denying collusion only in the vip section. Not the rest of the club. I dont know what that means. It is really hard to decipher Rudolph Giulianis comments. I think maybe what he is referring to is people like George Papadopoulos who was
offered dirt by the russians in the form of thousands of emails stolen from clintons inbox. Paul manafort was the Campaign Chairman for roughly four months at the most pivotal moment. He is directly at the center of it. He was the highest Ranking Member of that campaign with the closest ties to russia. And it is important to remember that he was heavily in debt by the time he came on as chairman and he offered to do it for free. He offered campaign access to a russian old garg in exchange for debt relief. These are all things that wont be addressed in the upcoming trial due to begin tomorrow with Jury Selection because it will focus mostly on his tax and bank fraud crimes. There will be a reckoning and will it be in his d. C. Trial
which will focus on his efforts as an unregistered foreign agent. It is especially notable in a campaign as thenally staffed as the Trump Campaign. We know that from the requirements and they often bragged about that. Thank you so much tonight. Thanks. Whether or not the president s attorneys believe collusion is a crime or not, the first real live trial in the Mueller Probe does begin tomorrow. That and much more ahead tonight. Fruits and veggies are essential to your health, but its tough to get enough of their nutrients. New one a day with natures medley is the only complete multivitamin with antioxidants from one total serving of fruits and veggies try new one a day with natures medley. End Citizens United is responsible for the content of this advertising. End Citizens United is responsible no matter how much you clean, does your house still smell stuffy . Thats because your home is filled with soft surfaces that trap odors and release them back into the room. So, try febreze fabric refresher. Febreze finds odors trapped in fabrics and cleans them away as it dries. Use febreze every time you tidy up to keep your whole house smelling fresh air clean. Fabric refresher even works for clothes you want to wear another day. Make febreze part of your clean routine for whole home freshness. Anticipate that a government witness will utter the word russia. Instead the trial is about what prosecutors allege is manaforts lavish lifestyle financed with money that he kept in secret accounts, all while evading taxes. The prosecutions witness list includes the guy who sold thim fancy suits and the mercedes dealer and even the landscaper on his mansion. So on the one hand we are looking at true his, to moment. The president of the United StatesCampaign Chair going on trial for multiple felonies. On the other hand theres a lot of reason to tamp down any expectations that this trial, no matter how important to the rule of law, will ultimately connect in any way to the larger debate around collusion. To help us understand where it fits in and Paul Manafort, we are joined by jeff horowitz. Thank you for your time. Thanks for having me. You have done a lot of reporting and investigation of what manaforts work meant. The work in ukraine, in russia, the link to this oligarch that weve heard so much about. Because of this trial, because weve learned that it is not explicitbly that, what do you think will be important that we learn through it . So it may not be as much of what were going to learn here. A lot of it is cut and dry. It is a step and something that Robert Muellers team needs to get done successfully. This is not about collusion. This is about a give who allegedly made 60 million overseas, didnt want to pay taxes but did want to spend it on fancy suits and yankee Season Ticket passes and time in the hamts. Theres a box this your tax return that says if you have any
overseas bank accounts, youre supposed to disclose them. Manafort didnt click that one. So well see what the, Bank Component is. The closer we get to the campaign is the suggestion that manaforts gave a campaign job and potentially some encouragement for a white house or a government job to a banker who was providing allegedly fraudulent loans to him. And that would reveal more than. At a evasion . It would look like an attempt to use the campaign . The question of why this person was so greedy that he didnt want to pay taxes but was so benevolent that he work for free on this campaign. I think those of us who have written about him for a while know that he was quite a freelancer. He was cutting deals. He viewed himself as an entrepreneur. A big question in terms of overall gist of manafort and his case will be to what degree he was doing anything, his motives and what he was up to had anything to do with the campaign at all. Weve seen from emails that have been released from his correspondence that they were trying to figure out how to get more money out of oleg. And obviously, Paul Manafort was allegedly interested in trying to use his position to get something out of a bank. The question of whether it has anything to do with it. When you say free lancer, another word that arises is hustler. The question is whether he was hustling in a way that might reflect on management. It would make they will look more like victims handle the coconspirators. Im not sure that it is a
question given his history. I think it is cut and dry without a court case. The question is, what was he trying to sell and how does any of this relate to the campaign. Theres no reason it has to. A guy had 68 million Cant Go On Trial In America for hiding 60 million. The 60 million, what will jurors take from this . It is very hard to wrap anyones head around the idea that the most brilliant in the world could be worth that much. It is having seen some of the documents and the financial transcripts, i have a hard time imagining it myself. I would say theyre very good at selling their open services. The money came in weird dribs and drabs and large lump sums. And as i said, the sort of, what work he did to he were it is almost extraneous. In fact it is extraneous to this trial. The important thing was whether or not he disclosed it without letting the government know that he had it. Thats a felony. Do you see anything that could happen that would make him flip . I think the question that youre asking would depend on him having something to flip about. I dont know that i view him as being a loyalist and thats an open question. People cut deal all the time just for leniency. Most people never go to trial. For some reason, he wont do anything. I think when people cut those deals, and those deals are very good when you can get them. Rick gates is presumably taking one against Paul Manafort right now. They cut deals because prosecutors have figured out that they have something they really want. And it is unclear whether the
special counsels office has a sense of Whether Manafort does have that sort of thing. It does seem like if there is not, if there is some bargaining to be done, that would be the time to do it. Yeah. As it approaches. Thank you very much. Thank you. Up next, weve seen it happen. A politician takes a stand and then folds. What happens when a politician does that every single time he claims to take a stand . We have a knew word for it. Stay with us. Leagues, gathered here are the worlds finest insurance experts. Rodney mastermind of discounts like safe driver, paperless. The list goes on. How about a discount for long lists . Gold. Mara, you save our customers hundreds for switching almost effortlessly. Its a gift. And jamie. Present. Together we are unstoppable. So, what are we gonna do . Insurance. Thats kind of what we do here. Moderate to severe Rheumatoid Arthritis was intense. My moms pain from i wondered if she could do the stuff
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