Donald trumps and his companys financial records, today revealed that his investigation into the president and into his company just might be much broader and more serious than previously known. It was a year ago that the manhattan d. A. , cy vance, subpoenaed eight years of tax returns and financial records from the president s accounting firm. Vances office had opened a criminal investigation into the role that the president and his business played in that hush money scheme payments that were made in the runup to the 2016 election. The hush money, if you remember, went to women who claimed they had had affairs with donald trump. Karen mcdougal and porn star, Stormy Daniels. The president tried to block the manhattan d. A. s subpoena, taking his case all the way to the Supreme Court. Arguing that he, as president , had total and complete immunity from criminal investigation. But last month, the Supreme Court ruled against the president , saying that the president does not have immunity from cy vances subpoena, and in making their ruling, the justices were clear, the president is not above the law. Their ruling made the Manhattan District Attorney basically the only entity in the country with a clear path toward finally prying loose the financial records that the president has fought tooth and nail against handing over. But there was a catch. See, the president could still go back to the lower courts and make other objections to the subpoena. So, that was exactly what the president did. He urged a federal judge to toss the manhattan d. A. s subpoena, because it was, quote, wildly overbroad. Trumps lawyers, essentially, said to cy vance, these records you are demanding go way beyond your investigation. So, this is where it gets interesting. Today, the Manhattan District Attorney filed his reply in court, and his reply is basically, oh, yeah . Well, we are investigating a lot more stuff than you think. The d. A. Cites news records on, quote, possibly extensive and protracted criminal conduct at the Trump Organization. And he drops hints suggesting that the information includes bank and insurance fraud, both felonies. The filing references congressional testimony from Donald Trumps former lawyer and fixer, Michael Cohen. Remember him . In that hearing, cohen gave details on the hush money scheme he carried out, at Donald Trumps direction, and for which cohen is currently serving a threeyear prison sentence, now in home confinement. But he also offered evidence of what he said was trumps propensity for lying to banks and insurance companies. I am giving to the committee today three years of mr. Trumps personal Financial Statements. It was my experience that mr. Trump inflated his total assets when it served his purposes. Did this information provided to us inflate the president s assets . I believe these numbers are inflated. And of course, inflating assets for a newspaper poll to boost your ego is not a crime, but to your knowledge, did the president ever provide inflated assets to a bank in order to help him obtain a loan . These documents and others were provided to Deutsche Bank, on one occasion where i was with them, in our attempt to obtain money, so that we can put a bid on the buffalo bills. Now, giving false information to a bank to secure a loan is called bank fraud. Its a felony. Michael cohen testified there to just one instance in which he witnessed that personally. And we know that cohen began cooperating with the manhattan d. A. s office last summer, meeting with investigators while he was still in prison in upstate new york. If the new york grand jury finds a provable pattern of criminal activity, then will may ultimately be substantial charges for cy vance to bring. His office is urging the judge in this case not to let the president keep delaying the subpoenaedlessly in the courts, because that would end up being a kind of back door to the president ial immunity that the Supreme Court specifically reje rejected. Joining us now are two reporters with an extensive history of reporting on Donald Trumps finances. David enrich is the New York Times business investigations editor, also the author of dark towers Deutsche Bank, donald trump, and an epic trail of destruction. Were also thrilled to have back with us, New York Times investigative reporter, susan craig, a key member of the reporting team that won the Pulitzer Prize in 2019 for its deep and riveting dive into the trump familys taxes, including instances of what the investigation revealed as outright fraud. Its a pleasure to get to talk to both of you. Suzanne, let me start with you and just the lowest hanging fruit. How tantalizing is it to think that cy vance may actually end up with his hands on the tax returns and how likely do you think that is . I think its interesting, because today everybody it was interesting to hear that the investigation has now gone beyond the one you know, the hush money payment that you talked about earlier. But its hardly surprising. I mean, i would imagine if cy vance gets these tax returns. Hes going to be like a kid in a candy shop. Hes going to look at everything. I think we got one example of things where hes interested in looking at Tax Information to see something out in the Public Record and add to that, treax returns and financial records. I think theres a good chance hes going to get it. The question is when, but hes got a good argument and the Supreme Court has sent it on a course. The president will continue to fight it, but i think its a decent legal argument, kind of straight down the middle. And suzanne, everyone whos seen the showtime documentary about the investigation into his finances that was based on what you had of his taxes, if the whole thing were suddenly available at the end of a procedure was made public, what would be the first thing you would look for . In terms of the taxes . I mean, theres yeah. Theres so many things. What would be the first thing i would go after. You look for some of the things that cy vance is looking for. Are the payments to Stormy Daniels there or karen mcdougal, there were a couple of payments that were right there. And you would those would be, i guess, two of the big things that you would look at. Im not sure valuations would be the first thing that i would go after, but i think thats going to be a piece of a puzzle to me, because i dont think youre going to find, necessarily, in the tax returns exactly were those valuations over or under . But youll see that in some of the other records that cy vance is looking for. So hes looking not just for tax records, but financial records, that kind of stuff. David, i want to get to your story this weekend about Deutsche Bank and an investigation into the banker that worked with donald trump and jared kushner, but i just traveling back in time to this cohen hearing was so riveting, because cohen basically says that donald trump is guilty of what cy vance today revealed hes investigating, which is whether or not donald trump committed bank and insurance fraud. Heres an exchange with listen to this. Lets talk about this on the other side. To your knowledge, did the president ever provide inflated assets to an Insurance Company . Yes. Who else knows that the president did this . Allen weisselberg, ron lieberman, and matthew calamari. So to your knowledge, did he commit a crime . Yes. And these three people know he did. How is this not something thats under criminal investigation at sdny as well . Or do we know that it isnt . I dont think we do know that it isnt. And i think the interesting thing to me is that the moment those words came out of Michael Cohens mouth last year, i got on the phone with some of my sources at Deutsche Bank, who have been looking who had been the ones in the drivers seat when these loans were made to trump. And they immediately confirmed that Michael Cohens testimony was basically correct. That trump was systemically overstating the value of all sorts of assets and the bankers would go in and sort of pore over his Financial Statements and his tax returns and look at the values he was assigned and kind of laugh to themselves that these were completely preposterously over the top. And you know, the bank dealt with that by arguing that they could just write down the value of the assets by as much as 70 . And they still thought that he was worth lending to. And i think the reality is that that might end up being trumps argument. That, this couldnt be bank fraud, because the bank knew as well as anyone that he was prone to wild exaggerations. So the bank wasnt taking him seriously, and therefore it wasnt a crime. So what responsibility does the bank have if he was submitting values that were so off that they laughed out loud and loaned him money anyway . Well, the bank isnt responsible for, you know, enforcing the law in this case. Deutsche bank has been proven over and over and over and over again over the years doesnt take very seriously generally its responsibility to enforce the rule of law. But i think the banks responsibility at this point is to be as cooperative as it needs to be with investigators, whether theyre on capitol hill or on sdny or in cy vances office. And to the extent this is a serious focus of cy vances investigation, it would really surprise me if he isnt going to reach out to Deutsche Bank and seek all their records, trump and his dealings with the bank. Let me put up go ahead, suzanne. I think thats really important. You said at the outset this is bank fraud. It might be. Did Deutsche Bank rely on this . In some cases, you dont need tax returns to figure out the Purchase Price of a building in manhattan. And they had other information, including other you know, his Tax Information, in some cases. So i think, just to be careful, they may have relied on it and to davids point, we can tell right now without seeing his tax returns that the information in those documents that Michael Cohen presented to congress, theres some stuff in there thats pretty crazy and its off. So it doesnt take tax returns to figure that out. And is it fraud . You have to come down to, did the bank rely on it . So, david, pick up that thread for me and also, just address some of your reporting from the weekend. Deutsche bank opens r s review the personal banker in trump and cu kushner. Is there any intersection between these two lines of inquiry . Im not sure that they are cause sally connected to each other, but theres an enormous amount of overlap. The longtime personal banker to trump as well as to the Kushner Family is now under investigation at the bank, because of real estate deals she did back in 2013, personally, where she and a couple of her Deutsche Bank colleagues purchased an apartment from an entity that now turns out to be partly owned by jared kushner. And that strikes, i think, a lot of people as a pretty glaring conflict of interest for the banker, rosemary bradley. And the reason thats important right now is that bradskblick w the Relationship Manager for trump. So when trump or Michael Cohen would go to Deutsche Bank with, you know, overstated Financial Statements or kind of bluffing the bank, they were interacting with her. And she would develop such an important central role to trump and his the people around him that she was a vip guest at the trump hotel in washington at the inauguration. She had vip seating at the inauguration. This is someone who is deeply embedded in the dna, the fabric of the Trump Organizations finances. And so to the extent that she is now in trouble at the bank, that really that raises a lot of questions about, you know, what information people might be able to get out of her, both inside the bank and outside of the bank. And so, and well see, but as i said earlier, i think if cy vance is seriously investigating the way that the that trump and the Trump Organization presented themselves financially to Deutsche Bank, rosemary bradlick is going to be very high on the list of people that theyre going to want to talk to. Suzanne, i want to give you the last word. And go ahead. I just one of the things to remember that cy vance is trying to get, hes going to be looking at these two issues, but he wants to look at the whole thing and he wants to just put all of the pieces together, both with the tax returns and the Financial Statements. He wants to see the hush money. He wants to see, was there bank fraud. He wants to see, was there foreign money . He wants to see everything. This is what hes after. Theres no question. And i guess, suzanne, the same question that i asked david was one i wanted to get you on the record on. Do you think that we know if cy vance is only person looking at what you just described, the whole picture. Do you think that sdny could possibly be looking at all of this still . I think i think they definitely could be, as far as we know, theyre not seeking the tax returns in this manner, but they could be conducting an investigation into who knows what. There could be a lot of things going on that we dont know about. A lot of things going on that we dont know about is sort of my motto these day. New york times reporters, david enrich and suzanne craig, its a pleasure to get to talk to both of you. Joining us now is andrew wiseman, former chief of the fraud section at the department of justice, former Senior Member of special counsel Robert Muellers investigation, currently a professor looking very professorially tonight at nyu law school. Andrew, thanks so much for being here. So you know, your role is often to break this down for me and we have the reporting, we have the filings, but tell me. You qgo back and watch that Michael Cohen hearing, and i watched an embarrassing chunk of it today, and its clear hes telling congress, donald trump is commit bank frauds over and over again. I just saw it one time, but this is his m. O. Is it likely that this is going to end in some clear criminal exposure for donald trump. I think theres definitely a criminal investigation and you have now with todays filing the manhattans d. A. s office saying that theyre looking at a series of individuals and entities in connection with the Trump Organization. Thats their words and their filing. And this seems like a classic whitecollar investigation, where, you know, theyre going to be looking for the bank records and theyre going to try to match those up and create a timeline to see what was the Trump Organization telling the banks, what were they telling the investigators, and what were they telling the federal and state and City Government when they were filing their tax returns . Because theyll want to see the valuation of the assets and see how those changed over time, as well as theyre going to want to see what the Trump Organization was saying about their income. Its not rocket science. You know, if youre trying to get a bank loan, youre going to be saying that you have lots of income and lots of assets and when youre filing your tax returns, you have an incentive to decrease your income, so you pay less. So the question is going to be forget investigators whether that incentive was carried out by people in the Trump Organization. A close trump ally and a veteran of the Justice Department said to me at the time of Michael Cohens arrest that that represented the gravest legal threat to donald trump, because the place where he acted most sort of hazardous to his own legal standing was in covering up affairs, was in the shoddy business practices. What do you make of the fact that cy vance went up and visited Michael Cohen in prison and seems to be following those threads . Well, its an obvious lead. I mean, one of the things that you need in a whitecollar investigation is someone to tell you where the bodies are buried. And so, you know, you dont want to take Michael Cohens word for it, but you want to see what leads he has, what documents he has, and then, you do exactly what the Manhattan District Attorneys office is doing, which is you press very hard to get documents. And you know, theyre doing something very smart, which is, the subpoena thats at issue here is to the Trump Organizations accountants. And that is really where youre going to get a cache of documents that could be really damning, if there is criminality, that is a really good place to look, because theyre going to have all sorts of records and tax returns in their possession and custody and control. So that was a smart move to go after them. Well, Michael Cohen i guess i ask, because moen was also, for a while, in the clutches of your old boss, bob mueller. And in his sentencing