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Velshi

those are all things that it might order. but even if israel were to say, ignore that, and say, you know, we don't care what the international court of justice says and, you know, we are going to continue waging this were in the way that we have, it's still going to have a significant impact on israel, because it's going to have the impact on those who support israel. and their ability to continue to support this war effort. >> and oona, i just want to ask you. unlike the war crimes we talk about, that the criminal court, things are little different here. the thing that will happen, the examination of the actual genocide accusations happens over time. what south africa is asking for immediately is, as you say, some kind of order. there's some kind of the, the terminology for what they can say that, while we're investigating, remember, these are your olivier shuns and as such, israel, this is what you need to do. >> yeah, so this is going to be a multi stage case and we are just at the very beginning of what probably is going to be years of litigation in the international court of justice,

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Velshi

and if this initial stage, what south africa is asking is they are saying, look, if we don't prevent this ongoing war or we don't constrain this ongoing war, that by the time the international court of justice finally gets around to addressing the merits of this claim of genocide, it's going to be too late. and so, what they are asking for in this initial hearing is, all you have to do is decide that there's, there might be a violation of the genocide convention, that there's plausible claims here that might fit within the genocide convention, and then if you find that that's the case, we want you to issue orders that would preserve the rights of everyone involved. so that would potentially include whether asking for is a halt to the war. i don't think they're going to get that. but what they might get's orders to wage the war in a more cautious way, so that they're not killing quite some of the civilians, greater access for aid, preservation of evidence. so, these are the initial orders that south africa is

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Velshi

difficult for anyone to survive, and that that constitutes a violation of the genocide convention. >> one of the things that you were quoted as saying, from an interview on pbs on thursday, was that the united states is also a signatory of the genocide convention. id the u.s., as a member of the genocide convention itself, its own legal obligations will kick in and it is prohibited from aiding and assisting in genocide. t it's also actually positively obligated to act to ent genocide, and so, this is going to make continuing military support certainly for israel maybe even for foreign assistance of various kinds israel quite difficult. what's the it? what's the thing that would happen that would cause anybody to do anything differently, as it relates to this war, that is happening today? >> well, so it's in the international court of justice was does what south africa is asking and decide that there is a possible case, that there is a violation that genocide convention happening in israel, an issue of provisional

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Velshi

this week's south african prison -- case against israel to the international court of justice. south africa formally accuse israel of committing genocide against the people of gaza. israel insists that its war in gaza is a legitimate defense of its people. now, you might be wondering what south africa has to do with the war between israel and hamas, and how exactly the international court of justice actually works. the icj, not to be confused with the icc, the international criminal court, was established in 1945 to settle disputes between u.n. member states. it's widely known as the world's court, situated in the hague in the netherlands. the icj, icj, is one of six

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Velshi

principal organs of the united nations, on the same footing as the general assembly and the security council. the court is composed of 15 judges. any u.n. member state can bring a case against any other member state, whether they are directly involved in the conflict in question or not. south africa wants the courts adjudication on the 1948 yuan genocide convention. south africa, israel, an state of palestine are three of the 152 signatories of that convention. it's an international treaty that codify'd, for the first time, the crime of genocide. it defines genocide as any of the five things listed on the screen committed with an intent to destroy, in whole, or in part, a national ethnic,, racial, or religious group. these five acts include telling members of the group, killing them, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing

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Velshi

asking for. if they get that. then there is going to be, you know, israel have to make a decision as to whether it will comply with those orders. and then the case will continue. there will be hearings initially in jurisdiction, whether this case actually belongs in the international court of justice before they finally get to the merits. so, it's going to be quite a long while. but this initial stage is really important because its initial decision as to whether, is there anything here? is this potentially actually a violation of the genocide convention? and are there obligations of israel, and therefore, on everybody else who supporting israel, fact to prevent ongoing acts of genocide, incitement to genocide, and other kinds of violations of the genocide convention? >> oona, it's always great to talk to you. i'm always smarter for. >> -- hathaway oona is a professor of law at yale law school. coming, up we will touch down in iowa where -- promising revenge against his enemies if he returns to power is poised to win the opening contests of the republican

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Velshi

measures, which is what south africa is asking, then that puts the united states in a difficult position because the united states is also a party to the genocide convention and as a party to the genocide convention, it has an obligation not to aid and assist violations of the genocide convention. so, providing arms, various kinds of foreign assistance to israel. including intelligence to israel in its fight in gaza. it also has an obligation to affirmatively act to prevent genocide. this has actually been why the united states government, in the past, has been slow to call even the rwandan genocide of genocide, because as soon as we know that there is a genocide happening, that creates all kinds of legal obligations on the united states government to act to prevent that. so, this is not a small thing. this is not just a question of whether the international court of justice is going to issue orders to israel, to conduct its war in a different kind of way, to allow more aid and access into gaza.

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Velshi

births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. during proceedings this week, south africa asked the court to order israel to halt its military activity in gaza, pending proper investigation and adjudication of the charges. the war has resulted in the deaths of more than 23,700 palestinians. as reported by the palestinian ministry of health. israel faces the court yesterday to defend itself. it argued that it was hamas militants who are guilty of genocide, after the october 7th attack that killed more than 1200 israelis. and the kidnapping of 250 hostages, as the israeli prime minister's office reported. israeli legal advisers argued that south africa's request for an immediate halt in fighting in gaza would block israel from its right to defend itself. joining me now is ana hathaway, professor of international law at the yale law school and the executive editor of just security. thank you for being with us, i appreciate your time here. this defense, i want to start

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