Time and became much more radicalized -- >> you saw that happening. >> yeah. we saw a shift from what i would term a libertarian anarchist book club to what we saw at bundy ranch and then a progression of armed stand-offs. >> what was rhodes like? this is the guy who led this group, went to yale law school. i don't know what happened in his life that he got to this point but is he a true believer? is it for membership? >> i don't think he is a true believer. he is a very smart individual, a very talented artist as well. he was a sculptor and did incredible art work. he obviously, i feel like h...