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Line. these are witnesses who apparently testified under oath, gave statements to federal investigators, both of which can be criminally charged if they are false. those witnesses are directly quoting the president and encouraging others not to look for documents or allegedly to conceal them. it's damaging. and the key here to keep in mind is that every case i've ever been involved with, the indictment was a heart stopper, you know, these are written by lawyers who are trying to convict the client, every indictment i've ever dealt with has fallen apart to some degree once we look more carefull...

These materials. >> one other quick question. we're all reading tea leaves at this moment. mike pence was quietly cleared by the justice department for the possession of classified documents. he announced he's filed to run for president. is that significant that they have cleared that case out of the way? does that mean anything? >> i think it is in a separate course, but i think one thing it's going do is it's certainly going to help with this comparison that trump's trying to do, conflating the pence case, the biden case, hillary clinton, anything he can where the word classified documents i...

By either selling these secrets to foreign governments or corporations. again, it sounds very sinister, but prosecutors have to investigate all angles. >> meantime, ken, nbc has brand new reporting that former vice president mike pence will not be charged in the case of classified documents found at his home. what more can you tell us about that decision? >> that's right, chris, our colleague laura jarrett breaking this news this morning that the pence team got a letter from the justice department yesterday saying this case was being closed without charges, and we also learned that mike pence ...

Laws. that's according to two people with knowledge of the investigation. nbc news has not confirmed this reporting and former president trump continues to maintain he did nothing wrong, but as this and several other investigations appear to be heating up and with more and more rivals entering the 2024 race, what are the legal and political implications for trump. ken dilanian is nbc's justice and intelligence correspondent, carol leonnig in the national reporter for "the washington post," and joining me here at the table is paul butler, a former federal prosecutor, both carol and paul are msn...

After they've been requested back from the government. >> so let me talk to you about this "new york times" report that special counsel jack smith and his team have been exploring, the documents case from multiple angles. here's another case of something bigger that maybe we understood, incluing examining whether there are links. they are also scrutinizing whether his employees sought to interfere with the government's attempt to obtain security camera footage from mar-a-lago. what are we looking at in terms of potential violations, charges here? >> so once again, the espionage act. but what p...